Talk: Eden2012

	Archives: #1, #2

Evolution of the M-line[]

What makes you think that any of those are part of that "M Series" nonsense?--Ant2242 (talk) 11:07, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

Hey[]

Hey there's a army of securitrons that wants to take your freedom --http://www.gifbin.com/983452 (talk) 10:46, April 20, 2015 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thecoldboringguy157 (talk • contribs) 01:37, April 20, 2015 (UTC). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Talkpage archiving[]

I discovered something when wrong with your latest talkpage archiving. Archive3 is empty and also your Archive1 is a redirect leading to nothing. I can fix it all for you if want, sparing you the trouble of figuring everything out. But at least your latest talkpage archive content needs to be restored. Jspoel 21:04, May 1, 2015 (UTC)

So, you want me to fix your talkpage archive or are you going to yourself? Jspoel 22:12, May 3, 2015 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!![]

You have been given a new vertibird, coming from your favorite faction!!. Your efforts and diligence have not gone unnoticed, and you have been given a small token of appreciation. Happy birthday!! (I just see it isn't yet your birthday in the timezone of the server, well the only real time is Central European Time anyway) - Greets Peace'n Hugs (talk) (blog) 22:36, May 11, 2015 (UTC)

Totally not a assassination attempt[]

You have been given A ticking ti- i mean a present yes. Your efforts and diligence have not gone unnoticed, and you have been given a small token of appreciation. If you hear it ticking just take off your helmet and put it in your face for idk 10 seconds it wont explode i promise --Thecoldboringguy157 (talk) 10:48 AM,May 19 2015 (UTC)

Question[]

Hey Eden, I've got a question for you. Hit me up in chat if you're getting on tonight. Richie9999 (talk) 21:36, June 10, 2015 (UTC)

Yo[]

Yo, you aint been around for a while. Where you at, dawg? JASPER//"Do you like hurting other people?" 16:53, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Because Enclave[]

http://i2.pixiv.net/c/480x960/img-master/img/2012/10/10/23/16/42/30726809_p0_master1200.jpg

Lord Onions: Dat Onion Ring Luvin Fox! (Talk) 19:27, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

Memorial Vote[]

I have reopened the memorial vote. I have removed all votes, and all comments due to the unpleasantness and questions over what the vote was for. I have reframed it around the intention of the vote, and would ask that all participants read through my comments about removing the previous comments. This isn't directed at anyone, this just a message I'm sending all participants. This is a recording. Agent c (talk) 18:17, August 11, 2015 (UTC)

Dear Eden2012

I've recently been uploading footage on youtube of any bugs encountered on Fallout 4 for Playstation 4, and then updating the appropriate articles on this site. Well this time I have 3 bugs to deliver, but I need to check in with one of them just to make sure it isn't already posted somewhere. Both bugs relate to when a player's settlement gets attacked.

1. During battle, the miscellaneous objective will mark itself as "completed" before all enemies are killed.

2. After successfully defending a settlement from an attack, if you interact with any of the settlers, they will ever fully complete their "thank you" dialogue speech.

3. After successfully defending a settlement from an attack, interacting with any of the settlers may cause you to be stuck in an infinite dialogue camera. The player can walk away, but they will be unable to press any other buttons other than "Options". The only way to fix this is to reload a save.

I've got it all on film, and am currently in progress of uploading it to youtube for everyone to see. My question to you is in regards to the third bug. Has this bug already been noted? I would like to know before I add this to the "Fallout 4 settlements" page just in case.

This message will be posted to multiple patrols for a faster reply.

- The Destroyer

Happy Birthday!![]

You have been given a ghoul mask. Your efforts and diligence have not gone unnoticed, and you have been given a small token of appreciation. Happy birthday!! - Greets Peace'n Hugs (talk) (blog) 02:45, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Merry Christmas 2016![]

To: Eden2012 From: SierraX	You have been given a Christmas present!
	Open it! Happy Holidays! You have been given a portable Enclave communications tower! Thank you for your contributions, and have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year! -SierraX (talk) 00:45, December 25, 2016 (UTC)

Merry Christmas![]

Merry Christmas and Happy new year, Eden! ----Cassie I can see you。✿ 10:25, December 26, 2016 (UTC)

Wikia's forced addition of videos to the wiki[]

Hello, I realise you may not have edited the wiki, or even visited us in a while. We do miss you, and I apologise for contacting you with a request for help… but we do need it, and there’s not much you need to do to help us.

As you may be aware, Wikia/Fandom have added a number of videos to pages on the wiki that they have self authored. Although the consensus view so far seems to be that these are not to our standards, I encourage you to view these for yourself and make up your own mind.

You can find a link to all the videos, and a petition I would like you to consider here. If you believe that these videos do not meet our standards, detract from the wiki, and should be removed, I encourage you to vote yes on this petition. You are of course welcome to vote no if you do not believe this is the case.

Thank you for your consideration. Agent c (talk) 21:19, September 7, 2017 (UTC)

Reunion[]

Eden. Baby. Come back to me. <3

In all seriousness, I'm sort of hanging around again, and I'd love to catch up with your sorry ass. Shoot me a message whenever you're around. ^寧靜 06:08, June 15, 2018 (UTC)

He Lives![]

Pureskin, you bastard, I legitimately thought you were dead from an overdose.

So glad to see otherwise, unless you're dead now, in which case, RIP.

But seriously though, good to know you were still kicking it all this time.

Your weird internet friend: The Ever Ruler (talk) 06:38, March 27, 2019 (UTC)

Call to Action[]

There have been quite a few sweeping changes to the wiki lately, and now that the Unified Community Platform has come to fruition here, it's more important than ever for our leadership to get together and inspire innovative changes for the next generation of wiki editors/readers.

As someone who is somewhat inactive myself, I understand how life gets in the way, and I'll fully understand if many of you are unable to commit, but I'd still like to try my best to appeal to you all in getting involved in a few of our currently active projects; especially so since rights-users participating in our discussions/votes are at an all-time low, and many internal decisions are having to be made between a select few users, which is bad for building consensus on important matters.

As such, I would like to ask for you all to look into two of our most important projects right now, as it would mean a lot to me and the wiki if as many people as possible got directly involved in helping shape our future:

1. The Vault Academy is a program for the training and acclimation of new and even veteran users, training them on how to get involved in the various facets of the wiki, as well as helping them build bonds with their fellow users. The program has kicked off in a big way, and we are in desperate need of more rights-users to sign on as mentors, as we're having to share multiple mentees between each mentor. If you're looking to leave your mark on the wiki, then signing onto TVA program will be your way of doing so.
2. As a minor update, we now have a new plagiarism point of contact. Should you suspect plagiarized content is at play, please get into point with the user FDekker who will be the initial handler of all such cases going forward.
3. We have an upcoming meeting of the minds coming up on the 20th of this month, and we need people to come forth and pitch their ideas for adapting to the recent UCP changes, and to possibly adopt some of the ideas that our new datamining friends have been pitching to us.

Thanks for your consideration, and I do hope to hear back from you all! Even if it is just some of you dropping by to check the place out and say a quick hello. ^寧靜 14:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

The Enclave is fascist[]

I understand your liking of the faction, but we deal with facts and we don't whitewash them. The Enclave is a totalitarian, authoritarian, incredibly racist and ultranationalist organization that has attempted genocide multiple times. Feel free to participate in the discussion on the talk page, but I can tell you it's going to be an uphill struggle against all evidence in the games. 【Ｔａｇａｚｉｅｌ】 ☏ 10:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

And that's precisely what we're focusing on, being objective and fair. The view of the NCR by the Khans and other factions is covered as one of the opinions, along with a fair and objective description of their actions - in particular the Mojave Campaign, which is seen as a morally corrosive, imperialist project trampling on the rights of local populations. This could be emphasized a little more, especially since the Bitter Springs Massacre is such a pivotal event in the game's lore.

Enclave is described as fascist not just by Three Dog, but Arcade too, who is Enclave-born and an insider, raised by people who had every reason to whitewash the nature of the Enclave to him and none whatsoever to be fair about their past. This is also consistent with Fo2 endings, where the seizure of the NCR by right-wing elements (Carlson's party) puts it on a path to military dictatorship and makes it a safe haven for Enclave survivors.

This is also reflected in the actions of the Enclave. You are free to believe their claims and propaganda, but as a wiki, our focus is always on objectivity. While the Enclave professes to stand for democracy and liberty (which is also the case for fascist movements, none of them - not the NSDAP, not the PNF, not the VF, etc. - advertised themselves as tyrannies, but as liberators of the Nation and its People, implementing a "true" democracy, as opposed to the "corrupt" liberal democracies), their actions are anything but. You have the wholesale enslavement and slaughter of American citizens in Fo2, Fo4, and Fo76, with all being ad hoc executions, pseudo-scientific racial policies used to justify genocide, and ultimately genocide itself, all clothed in rabid ultranationalism and pursuit of purity and victory over communism.

Even within the Enclave you have total surveillance, punishments for not following groupthink, and the firing squad for as little as annoying superior officers or breaking delicate equipment. Henry, Meyers, Gannon, even the Remnants (except for Moreno) don't defend the Enclave, because it's indefensible.

The Enclave literally tried to gain Lebensraum by gassing subhumans, perpetrating a genocide on a global scale, rooted in pseudoscientific dogma. There is no justification for such a horrifying act, especially not when the NCR and countless other factions proved that humanity survives and thrives.

For a more in-depth breakdown, see here. I ignored the ad hominem for obvious reasons, but unless you can substantiate your claims with proper references, the article has to remain as it is, as per our policy of objectivity. Simply saying "no, it's not true" is not a substantiated claim, sorry. Tagaziel ☏ 14:24, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Uh, there's far more than just the two citations. Look above. Mass murder of American congressmen, of American citizens, subjecting them to illegal experiments, multiple attempts at genocide, rabid ultranationalism, totalitarian surveillance... As stated, if you have sources to prove otherwise, provide them. Otherwise, you might need to brush up on the actions of the Enclave. And no, this isn't "my way or the highway", just a polite request to provide sources for a revision that chooses to ignore the myriad references on the page. Tagaziel ☏ 20:00, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Eden, I'm leaving you a talkpage message to let you know that you were kicked for violating a stop order. Consider this an official warning, and that if you continue to make disruptive edits to enclave pages in the way I outlined in discord, and continue to disrupt editing discussion places with arguments about whether or not the Enclave is fascist/war criminals/etc. I will be forced to escalate disciplinary action. The same goes for anyone who tries to engage you on those topics. ---bleep196- (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not discussing this with you further Eden. Violate my warning at your own peril. ---bleep196- (talk) 18:39, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I have been very patient with you up until now, and I warned you what would happen if you crossed the line again. You went into the Enclave's talk page and started flaimbaiting people immediately after what happened in discord. C'mon Eden, I know you are better than this. ---bleep196- (talk) 01:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sincere Olive Branch[]

Taking advantage of the fact that you still have a day left on your block to encourage you to seriously sit on and consider these words.

Eden, I've seen pretty much nothing from you except your hardcore obsessive Enclave posts and virulent insistence that they are the true heroes of the Fallout setting and that anyone who disagrees is a communist terrorist fascist. That last comment of yours opening up about your mental health struggles was the closest I'd come to seeing anything remotely sympathetic or honest-sounding from you up to that point. It didn't do much to change my opinion of you.

What did change my opinion of you was noticing that you link most of your social media on your discord account when you joined Memory Den yesterday and scrolling through them out of curiosity. It led me down a multi-hour rabbit hole of fascination and sympathy that's ended in me almost no longer disliking you. And I want to emphasize that "dislike" here is a very different beast from "hate." I get along perfectly well with a lot of people that I "dislike." Heck, I have people I'd almost consider friends who I'd also say that I "dislike" slightly.

There have been moments in the past where I've hated you based on how you conduct and present yourself here, but seeing what you're like when you're being sincere, which unfortunately only seems to happen outside of Fallout spaces, has melted that away almost entirely. And to my surprise as much as anyone's, I do feel like I owe you an apology for how I've approached debates with you and the inaccurate conclusions I've drawn about who you are as a person.

Sympathy is a complicated thing. You very clearly subscribe to a lot of beliefs and engage in a lot of behaviors that I would consider utterly reprehensible. I can also see that you were drawn to these beliefs by the fact that you struggle immensely with mental health and addiction and that communities espousing these beliefs offered you a sense of community and stability that you both lacked and desperately needed. And I can also see that you've been through the wringer in the past few years in a way that I cannot in good conscience not express sympathy for. Frankly, I think that you have a lot more in common with AnalogBreakdown than you realize, both in terms of life experiences and opinions on matters like bigotry.

I don't think you're a bad person or a monster or whatever. I've seen you, in that sleep-deprivation-induced hyperfixation session I spent scrolling through your linked socials, express a lot of political views that I actually agree with wholeheartedly, though whether you still hold them I can't be sure of given how insincere and evasive you are in all the discussions with you I've been a part of. I think that deep down you're probably a decent person who sincerely doesn't support bigotry, ethnic cleansing, authoritarianism, or... any of the other things the Enclave very blatantly canonically stands for.

I think that you've latched onto the Enclave for the same reasons a lot of people do - they have cool designs, cool slogans, and it's fun to root for the "bad guy" sometimes. That's fine. It's okay. But you have been taking it way too far for way too long. And again, I get why you have. I really do. It's an easy and relaxing escape. But you really need to look in the mirror and realize two things:

1. That your obsession with the Enclave is opening you up to being radicalized by the sizable number of actual bigots and fascists in Enclave fan spaces, who want to whitewash the page the same way you do not because they sincerely disagree with Ana, Tag, Anach and I's stance that the Enclave are Nazi-coded (that coding is the whole reason they're drawn to it), but because they view Enclave fanboyism as a good gateway drug to their beliefs and want to keep the faction and its fanbase seeming nice and approachable to vulnerable people like yourself for the purposes of spreading and legitimizing their ideology.
2. That this fight against an imagined conspiracy to slander your favorite fictional videogame faction (and I'm sincerely not attempting to gaslight you here; this is not some conspiracy. I hadn't spoken to Tag once outside of talk pages for over four months until the past couple days, and only popped into the discussion because I have notifications turned on for that talk page and felt strongly on the matter) is in no way good for your mental state, especially given the extremely vulnerable place I know for a fact you've been in for the past couple months - again, I really think everyone here would be more understanding of you if you were emotionally open to this community in the same way you are on the other socials you've linked on discord.

Your ban is ending tomorrow, but I would seriously suggest that you take some further time away from the wiki and this whole Enclave Fascism debate afterwards to focus on your mental and physical health, reconsider your beliefs about the character of the people disagreeing with you (as I have here), and hopefully come back to this discussion in a healthier place.

Again, I want to offer a sincere apology for some of the things I've assumed about you in the past. But you need to understand that hiding behind the mask of Agent Chronos or whatever in nearly all your interactions with this community did not make it easy to tell what kind of person you actually are. Honestly, I'm still a little uncertain and confused about that, but I can at least tell you probably aren't the remorseless shitbag I thought you were.

I sincerely wish you well with regards to your physical and mental health, and I hope that you find yourself in a better place sooner rather than later. If you need support, I know there's people in this community who are willing to offer it. Including the people you might not be expecting it from. DirtyBlue929 (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your candor and honesty in your response. Like I said, I do think it's best that you take some time away from all this and seek professional help. To address a few points that I think you should consider:

"I FEAR the super mutants and ghouls becoming a real thing IRL one of these days is why I dislike them..."

First of all, I would like to ask you to consider why exactly you fear the existence of things like super mutants and ghouls. A lot of the talking points you repeat about them, as far as I'm aware, are just repetitions of Enclave/BoS propaganda that are very clearly meant by the writers to be illustrating unfair prejudice rather than a sincerely good point.

What exactly scares you about them? That they're ugly and scary-looking? That they're sometimes (fine, "usually" for East Coast super mutants specifically) violent? What about the countless numbers of ghouls and, on the west coast, super mutants that are functional members of society, and no threat to anyone? I know that for someone with your condition it's very easy to assume that there's secret hostility behind people's behavior, secret motives, some kind of malicious plot or threat of violence lurking behind something that seems, or that claims to be, nonthreatening.

But if you actually look, really look at how the game portrays ghouls and super mutants, at least in FO2 and NV for the latter, you'll see that there's very little of that there. The entire point of ghouls, as illustrated extensively in their dialogue, is that in terms of how they think and act, they're basically just ordinary people who have unfortunately developed hideous physical deformities. Heck, the Nightkin explicitly suffer from schizophrenia and you meet many of them that are not at all violent. Can you not sympathize, even a little? See that they're human (or, well, "human") like you, and suffering in the same way you are?

Consider again that the majority of the sources we have for the Enclave's stances on ghouls and super mutants are President Eden's broadcasts... in which he directly lies about his identity and plans in order to get wastelanders to cooperate with the Enclave long enough for him to exterminate them. Yes, ghouls and super mutants are ugly and gross, and sometimes violent. An argument could even be made that they're more violent on average than "normal" people due to some of them being brain-damaged by their mutations.

Does that justify their wholesale extermination? Including the ones that aren't brain-damaged? Furthermore, does it not strike you as at all similar to how fascists attempt to gain support by creating fear of some threatening outside group, and how they usually start with targets everyone already hates? Do you not think that maybe, between the way the writers blatantly paint ghouls in particular as victims of unjust prejudice and the fact that early concept art for the Enclave's uniforms was based on photos of Nazi officers, that Eden preaching about what a horrible threat they are to America is perhaps meant to be seen as a parallel to the early stages of a certain something that happened in real life?

We can, at least, agree that the Master is very creepy and scary. But he's also long dead, and as creepy as he is, he was (emphasis on past-tense "was") a human being who believed he was doing something good for the world, horrifically misguided and mentally unstable as he was.

"I do believe theirs a massive fascist/communist conspiracy at foot here, it clearly doesn't involve you I can see now... but I do believe it does involve Tag. I'm not sure... I just feel it in my bones. Forgive me. Would this be enforced in such an authoritarian manner if there weren't??"

As I said, I understand that you have a condition. One which, you should realize by now, can affect your perception of things and ability to process information rationally. I sympathize, I really do. You see something you perceive as a threat and you're inclined to think, thanks to your condition, that there's something more to it. That the threat is even greater than what you can see with just your eyes.

I mentioned that I hadn't talked to Tag in months until a couple days ago. I can assure you from the conversations we've had since, Tag is just a left-wing wiki user with an opinion that's different from yours. If there's a "conspiracy" at work here, it's as simple as some of the people disagreeing with you being part of a casual group of friends that share the same opinion. You say that this whole thing is being "enforced in an authoritarian manner." I would like you to step back and realize that the "enforcement" of it so far has consisted of:

1. Edits being made to your favorite wiki page years after you stopped contributing regularly to the wiki
2. You coming back to the wiki and becoming extremely possessive of "your" page and hostile to people editing it in ways you don't approve of, to the point of instigating edit wars.
3. You being told, without being punished, to stop edit warring and instead discuss any major changes to the page with other editors before undoing them.
4. You being told, without being punished, to stop constantly losing your temper in said discussions, and that unless you can back your perspective up with actual evidence and arguments, we won't be editing the article to reflect that perspective.
5. You being told, without being punished, that if you don't stop starting heated arguments and making wild, insulting accusations against other users, up to and including calling them fascists and terrorists simply for disagreeing with you about the messaging of a videogame, you will receive a very short ban, like sending a misbehaving child to the time-out corner.
6. You receiving said time-out after continuing to do the thing you were asked not to do.

Frankly, what you've interpreted as "authoritarian fascist enforcement" has, to my eyes and nearly everyone else's I've talked to about this, been the staff of this wiki treating you with kid's gloves and being way, way more forgiving than other people would be, specifically because you've been here for ages and were a valued contributor for a long time, and as such they on some level don't want to have to get rid of you.

If a brand-new user had been the one to do the things you've done lately, I'm willing to bet that they would have been banned far earlier and given far fewer chances to speak their mind, because it would look very much like they were a trolling wiki vandal. I'm going to be completely honest: you are being treated unfairly. Specifically, you're being given unfair amounts of second chances because people who've been in this community for as long or longer than you consider you a friend, and are defending you from fair punishments that you've more than earned by this point because they feel bad for you.

You want to know how Tag has talked about you to me? I explained that I feel bad for you, and want to try and reach out and shake you out of this obvious mental health episode before you do something you regret and get yourself permabanned, and she agreed with the sentiment and wished me luck. Frankly I've seen lots of sympathy for you in conversations I've had with friends about this whole ordeal. But like I said, sympathy is a complicated thing, and sympathy alone isn't enough to make people keep forgiving you over and over and over. You've clearly allowed yourself to fall down a rabbit hole of some variety and many people are understandably fed up with trying to pull you out of it.

A friend showed me a bit of your response on the wiki discord (I categorically refuse to join it these days for personal reasons I won't get into) to some of those old tweets I saw coming to light, and... I know this is going to sound hostile, and I do not mean it to be, sincerely, but you have clearly bought hook line and sinker into the "Clean Wehrmacht Myth." The mentions you make of German soldiers spending Christmas with allied soldiers and mutually hoping for an end to the war happened in World War One, under the Kaiser and the Imperial German Army, not the Wehrmacht.

There were no Christmas truces under the Nazis. Wehrmacht soldiers were told constantly by their superiors and Nazi-approved media (the only media they had legal access to) that allied troops were murderous, treacherous thugs. Any kind of fraternization with the enemy was a criminal offense punishable by discharge and imprisonment without trial, if you were lucky enough not to just be executed on the spot. Not to mention the consequences for one's friends and family, who would be placed under intense SS scrutiny for any smidge of anti-Nazi behavior to justify arresting and punishing them too.

One of the tweets I saw was you mentioning you'd watched an "eye-opening" documentary about allied war crimes in World War 2. "Hellstorm", it was called. I don't know if you've actually looked into it, but its director is a homophobic white supremacist holocaust denier. A paranoid conspiracy theorist who promotes flat earth, qanon, and who opposes American Neo-Nazis not because he disagrees with the ideology of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich, but because he believes that they're a CIA psyop to make Nazism look bad. "Hellstorm" was pro-Nazi propaganda that used a deceptive and manipulative presentation of the unfortunate and oft-forgotten topic of allied war crimes to make the Nazis appear more innocent than they actually were, for the express political purpose of making Nazism and its ideals seem less threatening to the American public. Whatever opinions and beliefs it instilled with you, I urge you to seriously reconsider them.

This is probably going to be my last words to you on this whole issue. I've said it before: people are trying to help you and give you the benefit of the doubt, on all sides of this. Many of them have run out of patience after months or years of you behaving like this and espousing these beliefs. I am really, really trying to help you avoid doing or saying something that will get you permanently banned from a community that has been of great importance to you for 12 years, primarily for your sake as you clearly need whatever sense of stability and safety you can get at this point.

But you need to step back and calm down. You need to take deep breaths, think rationally, and be self-aware. Think about your condition, and the lines of thinking it leads you to, and what the actual most likely reason for all of this drama over the last few weeks has been: a big conspiracy by communist fascist terrorists to fuck with you specifically, or that you've gotten overly attached to something from your youth that gave you comfort, listened to the wrong people at times, and allowed both of those things to lead you down a path of bitterness, paranoia, and refusal to consider that you may be wrong about things. And that it's doing your mental health no favors whatsoever.

The Enclave is transparently inspired by the Nazis, Eden. It's important that you understand that and recognize that their cool armor and pro-America slogans are tools that they are, in the context of the story, using to make their fascism seem normal and acceptable to themselves and others. It's also okay to still like that cool armor the pro-America slogans despite that. But I think your inability to recognize them for what they are speaks to a deeper issue you have with recognizing that sort of thing in real life, and it scares me. And it's starting to scare this community too. --DirtyBlue929 (talk) 04:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not going to devote too much more effort to debating this, but I will offer short (in comparison to my usual essays :p) rebuttals to your points:

Josh Sawyer's exact quote, which was in response to a semi-incoherent post by someone seemingly complaining about "left wing politics" in the games, was:

"What does the Enclave have to do with left-wing/progressive viewpoints? I doubt there are many right-wingers/conservatives who would look at the Enclave's views and behavior and say, "Yeah these dudes are great." The Enclave doesn't map to a contemporary political group."

He then goes on to compare it to a contemporary political group anyway in a later post (specifically saying that they're like an IRL conservative think tank "gone extremist and haywire"), while also explicitly describing them as not being the legitimate US government, but a deep state conspiracy:

"Any references we may have made to Pre-War individuals who eventually formed the post-war Enclave being in a "shadow" government are not intended in the UK-sense, but in the sense of an extra-political conspiratorial collaboration/collusion between a subset of government and private industry. Certainly sections of the U.S. government engage in similar actions currently; the idea of the Enclave is simply that the efforts were more widespread, conspiratorial, and unified, essentially a PNAC-style think tank gone extremist and haywire."

... and later goes on to say that he'd be interested in exploring the pre-war Enclave's "moustache-twirling [evil]" through something like the Operation Anchorage simulation in the future. All this combined: I think the keyword in the quote you paraphrased is "contemporary", with a dash of him not really thinking about fringe groups when he said it. It's clear from the historical parallels to how fascists quietly seized control of governments from within during the 1920s-30s, the very very blatant and on-the-nose similarities between "The Project" and the "Final Solution" (innocuous and non-descript name, genocidal intent, dehumanization of its victims, use of gas specifically, etc), the fact that he outright describes them and their progenitors as "evil" and, again, the fact that their uniforms were concepted and developed from reference images of Nazi officers is extremely telling to me.

He also, interestingly, refers to the Enclave as a whole as a "paramilitary" just like Arcade does, so that's worth considering.

"a literal Holocaust survivor portrayed one of them in the TV series."

Michael Emerson, the actor you're talking about, is not a holocaust survivor. He was born in 1954. I don't even know if he's Jewish, his wikipedia page doesn't mention it if so. His character is named after a holocaust survivor, though, yes. He also is defined by the fact that he defected from them, having previously lived under heavy guard in some kind of scientific research work camp... thing where he was shot at for trying to leave.

His situation, with the origin of the name in mind, reads more to me as having been intended as analogous to a death camp escapee fleeing Germany for an allied nation (the NCR, in this case -- and before you go off about them, I'm just noting their role in the analogy, I would hardly call the NCR clear-cut "good guys").

"do you honestly believe that Bethesda would've added them back into Fallout 4 and finally acknowledged the Enclave community with this and in 76? They're pretty politically correct, man. If they were really the evil Nazi stereotype of the series, I'm telling you... Bethesda isn't going to touch something like that with a 40 foot pole"

Do you have any idea how much merchandise gets made for the Galactic Empire? Disney is as "woke" as they come and George Lucas explicitly based the Empire's visuals and role in the setting on Nazi Germany (as portrayed in the classic "plucky heroic soldiers battling evil" war movies he grew up watching). Corporations have absolutely no compunctions about embracing and selling the aesthetics of their explicit fascist "bad guys" as products, often because they rightfully believe that the majority of people are media literate enough to recognize that these are bad guys.

Honestly I could go off for multiple pages worth of text about how performative and insincere corporate "political correctness"/"wokeness" is (including Bethesda's) and how it absolutely makes sense that they'd water down, commodify and sell the aesthetics of fascism and bigotry just as much as they do the aesthetics of leftism and diversity, but that would be getting wildly off-topic, you'd probably wind up vehemently disagreeing with some part of it and this conversation would turn ugly again.

Bringing it back around: the Enclave's portrayal in 76 is not the bone-throw you've made it out to be, TBQH:

1. It canonizes Sawyer's comments about how they were an illegal deep state that seized power (the executions of non-Enclave politicians happened before Eckhart seized power)
2. Eckhart literally seized power in a coup and waged war against American citizens in the name of a personal vendetta against an already-defeated China that started (admittedly in a cut note) when his dad defected to them, renounced capitalism, dissolved the family company and (IIRC) gave away his entire fortune to charity. Man was so buttmad about losing his billion dollar inheritance he unleashed a plague that could have potentially destroyed the human race just so he could keep nuking the radioactive rubble of China until it turned to glass.
3. When the few decent people under his command (who notably were not originally members of the Enclave, but unaffiliated, out-of-the-loop military personnel who he recruited post-war as muscle to replace losses from his coup) finally had enough and rose up against him, they all got gassed to death by their bunker's creepy sinister AI administrator, who has since become even creepier and more sinister thanks to the damage he sustained while gassing them to death.

I would hardly call being MODUS's lackey something the game is portraying as good or heroic. But I suppose we'll see in the future; there's gotta be some reason he and Orlando are supporting the Responders. But I suspect there's ugly ulterior motives behind it, given literally everything else that the Enclave has ever done in the entire series. --DirtyBlue929 (talk) 06:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, last last note: I am far from an Enclave "hater". I actually really enjoy how they've been used in the series so far and think they're an excellent villain faction that I'd love to see more of. OWB's Enclave Reborn submod is a guilty pleasure for its sheer absurd patriotism and the extensive, explicitly lore-unfriendly shift you can make in it to genuine democracy. Similarly, for full context, I think the NCR and BOS both generally kinda suck from an ethical and moral standpoint (though both are leagues ahead of the likes of the Enclave and Legion in those regards IMO), but just like with the Enclave I love their vibes and role in the series.

I'd actually been rooting for the NCR to collapse into civil war, marital law, and a degree of anarchy in future installments as a way to make the west coast setting "wild" and "apocalyptic" again, in a way that's fresh and interesting that doesn't undercut their scope, power, and importance to the series' legacy. TV show gave that wish in a very monkey's paw way that I kind of hate, lol. DirtyBlue929 (talk) 07:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Patroller request[]

Sorry, you've not been active long enough for me to grant you patroller rights. I'd only mark you as consistently active 12 of June. Needs more time, maybe two months or so with consistent and considerable activity. Jspoel 15:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)