Talk: Shaun (synth)

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Abandoning at endgame

"Should the Sole Survivor leave Shaun in the institute following the assault by The Brotherhood of Steel or The Railroad" is what is said on the page - is this not an option for the Minutemen?

infobox

can the infobox for shaun be considered complete? i was wondering whether or not the banner at the top of the page is still necessary. --....slime man (talk) 03:29, January 2, 2016 (UTC)

I've been wondering that about a lot of pages. I'm not sure if we're waiting for the GECK so we can fill in stats for characters or something. Stats like SPECIAL, etc. Maybe a note in the flag is needed at this stage. {{Infobox incomplete|stats needed}} or something. --Xernoc (talk) 03:37, January 2, 2016 (UTC)

Junk collection consistent across playthroughs?

Wondering, really. Are the junk items Shaun asks for constant, and in the same order? Asking because they're fully voiced for which junk he requests. I got them in the following order:

1. Microscope
2. Hot plate
3. Biometric Scanner

I'm not at the point in my current playthrough to verify this. This was recorded on my older one, which sided with the Institute. ☯ Miggy ^{(hawk talk)} 04:38, January 9, 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that it varies. In my own gameplay after the ending of the main story Shaun first asks for a hot plate before anything else. I think it's just different for each player. It's because of this that when I was writing about him asking for junk I put in ie Hot Plate because it was the first thing he asked for from me. --....slime man (talk) 17:05, January 10, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, but does he ask for the same three items each time? As in, does he always ask for a biometric scanner, a microscope, and a hot plate? That would be worth mentioning on the article, if they're the same few items each time but the order they're asked for varies. ☯ Miggy ^{(hawk talk)} 19:56, January 10, 2016 (UTC)

The set of items is finite, but is more than just those three. Off the top of my head, Hot Plate, Telephone, Microscope, Biometric Scanner, Camera. I may be forgetting one. Defiler99 (talk) 15:16, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Objects referenced in the quest script for DialogueInstituteShaunKid are: Alarm Clock, Biometric Scanner, Camera, Aluminum Canister, Fuse, Hot Plate, Microscope, Telephone, Vacuum Tube. But I can't read the script itself. --Alfwyn (talk) 15:53, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Shaun not able to be sent to all settlements?

I've been able to move shaun to sanctuary and red rocket but he never seems to appear at croup manor. I'm going to do a bit more testing but if anyone else can confirm we can toss it onto the bugs section.

Unable to Give Requested Item Bug

Regarding the bug about being unable to give Shaun the item he requests due to bugged dialog, a couple of notes from my testing. First of all, it doesn't always happen on the first item he asks for as the page currently states. Second, I wonder if it may be quest-related. On my first several playthroughs I didn't encounter this bug. But in my current playthrough I sided with BoS for the first time and I was able to give him the first item he asked for. After he asked for the second item (telephone, if that matters), his dialog was normal (he kept asking for it) until after I did Defend the Castle when Preston gave it to me. I can't swear that this was the trigger, but I'm 80% certain this was the only quest I had completed before I noticed he lost his dialog requesting the item, and I did nothing else that should have triggered the bug (such as sending him to another settlement). For now, this is speculation on my part, but I am wondering if doing Minutemen quests may trigger the bug. -- DeJuanNOnley (talk) 12:33, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Confuses Sole Survivor's gender

Today I've met the kid for the first time after sending him into a settlement, and he called my character "dad", although I'm playing a female character. Not in the dialogue, but as an idle remark, alike to "I like what they're building here, dad" or alongside with it. Curious, I've waited a few days outside and went back, and started circling him, and, again, he called my female Survivor "Dad". Can anyone confirm the bug?--37.190.63.23 01:48, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

This is an unfortunately common bug across a myriad of NPCs. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the Shaun synth managed to slip through Bethesda's "Playtesting," as well. ^寧靜 01:53, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

Assigning Shaun

Something i found is that you can assign shaun to stuff with the population management.

Items Shaun asks for

Shaun can ask for these items for his project: biometric scanner, telephone, camera, alarm clock, hot plate, microscope, vacuum tube. Normally he will give you the Wazer Wifle the 3rd time you give him any of the items. The Wazer Wifle sometimes come with better mods than the standard pre-installed, based on level probably. In my case I get the rifle with reflex sight and quantum gyro compensating lens using the quickload trick at level 68 (quicksave before you give the item). 60.49.34.128 13:58, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

It is unknown

These statements do not belong on wiki pages, in the same vein as statements claiming what should be noted. They can't be supported by objective points and also lead to subjective speculation being appended to the sentence. Furthermore, they also lead to people thinking it's okay to put other similar statements about what they may think about the subjective but can't say for sure. Great Mara (talk) 19:06, August 25, 2018 (UTC)

I'd question why using speculation on the Kasumi page seems to be permissible to you (since it pushes the theory that she's human when Far Harbor is intentionally ambiguous about whether or not Kasumi is human or synth, and even the developers never commented on it), yet stating that we don't know if Shaun will age or not once Father has modified him is something you'd rather not have on this page, despite the fact that we don't know such a thing. It's not like the statement pushes one idea over the other (as opposed to the Kasumi page right now pushing the idea that she's really human, which seems to be a matter of moderators and administrator being selective about which policies they'll enforce and when they'll enforce them), so I don't see the issue. Canonically, Father modified Shaun. The notion that he still doesn't age isn't supported any any post-MQ dialogue after the Institute is destroyed, so I don't see why it's an issue to state that it's not currently known. Lobsel Vith (talk) 21:29, August 25, 2018 (UTC)

What canon modifications did Father make exactly? You mean the kid having his memories re-programmed? Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 21:42, August 25, 2018 (UTC)

There is no speculation on the Kasumi Nakano page, everything stated on the page is an objective statement and verifiable and citeable from the game. There is no "It is unknown..." statement on the Kasumi Nakano page either, so there isn't even a parallel between these two pages. Furthermore, you seriously cannot expect every editor to have omniscient knowledge of every single bit of content of other pages on the wiki, so trying to justify bad content on another page is not an excuse for trying to add it to another article. I saw a bad statement being added to the page in your edit, so I dealth with it accordingly, just as I would if I found a similar one on another page. Great Mara (talk) 20:34, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

There is a statement that pushes the notion that she's truly human, which is entirely speculation since Far Harbor doesn't take a side on the matter of whether Kasumi is a synth or a human. Unlike the edit I implemented - where I simply stated that we don't know if Shaun is still engineered not to age (which is true - we don't know whether this is still the case given how Father modified him to live a life outside the Institute). I find it rather hypocritical that outright speculation is maintained on the Kasumui page while a neutral statement about Shaun is omitted. And calling it "bad content" doesn't hide the hypocrisy of your selective edits. You can't actively maintain speculation on one page and edit another because you claim it's speculation when it's merely a neutral observation about our lack of knowledge regarding whether Shaun will age or not. Lobsel Vith (talk) 23:17, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, except there is a *massive* difference between citing in-game sources that state she's wrong in her believes and you stating "well, he may have been modified randomly at some unknown point." I can't find anything that even hints he's been modified, let alone confirming it. By this logic, I can edit the Nate article to state he may have gotten a law degree at some point, because nothing states otherwise. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 23:30, August 26, 2018 (UTC)

No in-game sources say she’s definitively human. Conflating fan speculation with fact doesn’t make it fact no matter how you try to dress it up. Lobsel Vith (talk) 17:15, August 29, 2018 (UTC)

Lobsel, is there anything that indicates that Father may have modified Shaun in a way such that he does not age? If not, I see no reason to add it to this page.
- FDekker ^talk 22:30, August 27, 2018 (UTC)

I’d say there’s nothing to indicate Shaun won’t age when the protagonist receives him, and simply stating that we don’t know if he won’t age at this point (post-MQ) is neutral, as opposed to the Kasumi page using fan speculation to push one narrative over another. To have a statement that definitively reads that he won’t age is misleading as we don’t know if this is the case. Lobsel Vith (talk) 17:15, August 29, 2018 (UTC)

That doesn't answer my question. My question was whether there is anything that indicates whether he may have modified Shaun in such a way, regardless of whether he actually did. So far I have not seen any reason to think that this modification is there. We might as well add "Father may have modified Shaun to give him three kidneys" because that's also technically possible it's also neutral about whether it actually happened.

Would you agree that it is bogus to add the kidney statement I just mentioned? If so, what would you say is the difference between the kidney statement and the not aging statement?
- FDekker ^talk 17:38, August 29, 2018 (UTC)

It’s an invalid comparison. We know Father modified Shaun because he believes he’s the son of the protagonist. What we don’t know is if he’ll age. He’s not intended to age when he’s an experiment for the Institute, but if the Institute is destroyed? If Shaun was intended to give the protagonist a child, I find it questionable if Father would do that with one who would never age, especially in an environment hostile to synths. And a neutral statement addressing that we don’t know if he’ll age is fair. Given how the Kasumi page is currently championing fan speculation about her being human, when the DLC never specifies either way, I find it questionable why a neutral statement about Shaun’s aging is such an issue. Lobsel Vith (talk) 16:58, August 30, 2018 (UTC)

If we “all know it,” then cite it here on the talkpage. Because all I see in Father’s dialogue is that the synth Shaun was reprogrammed, nothing else. Furthermore, I read Kasumi’s page the other day and there are no speculative statements on it. Trying to bring the Kasumi Nakano page into this discussion is the invalid comparison. Great Mara (talk) 17:02, August 30, 2018 (UTC)

It isn’t invalid to point out that you’re allowing speculation on an article (one that pushes the idea that Kasumi is really human) while taking umbrage with the neutral statement that we don’t know if Shaun will age post-MQ. Lobsel Vith (talk) 14:57, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

Is there a broken record in here? There is no speculation on the Kasumi article. And once again, you conpletely ignore items pertinent to this discussion to push that fallacy. You were asked twice to cite where he had been modified instead of just reprogrammed. So where is it? Great Mara (talk) 18:02, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

There is speculation on the Kasumi page that pushes the fan theory that she's truly human. And I've ignored nothing pertinent - I pointed out that a statement that reads that we don't know if Shaun will age, post-MQ, is neutral and truthful, while pushing the theory that Kasumi is truly human is speculation. Lobsel Vith (talk) 19:18, September 1, 2018 (UTC)

@Lobsel "He’s not intended to age when he’s an experiment for the Institute." Do you have a source for that?
- FDekker ^talk 17:24, August 30, 2018 (UTC)

Oops, looks like I got it the wrong way around; this discussion is about the potential modification that would start his aging process rather stop it. My apologies. I'll have to look into this again.
- FDekker ^talk 20:28, August 30, 2018 (UTC)

Alright, I've taken another look at what we have.
Shaun is unable to age during the main quest, that much we know for sure. You suggest that Father may have reprogrammed Shaun to be able to age, and I agree that it would make sense to do so since it's kind of weird to give someone the opportunity to raise a child that doesn't age. However, I think there are still two problems with this:

1. You suggested that Shaun may have been modified in the storyline where the Institute is blown up. I think you said that because in that storyline we can no longer hear the Institute scientists say that Shaun cannot age. However, if I'm not mistaken the other storylines still have Institute scientists talking about how Shaun does not age, so that would mean that Shaun can only age if the Institute is blown up. However, I cannot think of any event specific to that storyline that would result in Shaun being modified.
2. Before we can ask whether Father would have chosen to reprogram Shaun to be able, we should ask whether it's even possible for synths to age at all. Biologically aging, that is, not just aging from deterioration which I'm sure all synths can do. I'm talking about going into puberty and becoming taller and so on. I cannot think of a single synth of which we know that they have aged; most synths just receive an adult body and a set of fitting memories. Therefore, I don't think that adding "Father may have modified him to allow him to age" is a very neutral statement with regards to speculativeness because it asserts that it's possible for synths to age at all; that the necessary technology exists.

- FDekker ^talk 22:37, August 30, 2018 (UTC)

There’s no statement made that all synths are immortal. For example, DiMA’s plans in Far Harbor would inevitably fall apart if his synth doppelgängers never aged, but no one makes any such claim, and Kasumi’s growth and aging is never cited to invalidate the possibility that she’s a synth. Lobsel Vith (talk) 14:57, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I have never said that all synths are immortal or anything related to that. I do not see how your comment relates to what I said, and so far you have dodged all questions in this thread by referring to the Kasumi page (which is a perfectly fine page) or by nitpicking a single irrelevant sentence in the question asked (which detracts from the discussion as a whole). I'm running out of patience, and that doesn't happen often. I need you to answer me the following questions if you want to be taken seriously:

1. Do you have proof that synths are able to age biologically?
2. You're talking about a modification that allowed Shaun to age. What evidence do you have for a modification taking place?

Thank you.
- FDekker ^talk 19:03, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

Respectfully, I've addressed the questions posed in this Talk Page, and pointed out the hypocrisy of referring to a neutral statement as speculation while permitting actual speculation on another page. The double-standards being employed are deserving of being pointed out. Am I saying that we should support the idea that Shaun can age? No. I'm saying that, since we don't know if Shaun will age or not, a neutral statement on the matter would be pertinent. We know Father modified Shaun - he's clearly not the same as he was while he was nothing more than an experiment. Given that DiMA engages in two possible replacements, and age is never cited as an issue for the masquerade, I don't see why anyone believes synths are necessarily immortal. And since we canonically know Father modified Shaun, but not to what extent, I don't see why you're asking for proof. Shaun believes he's the son of the protagonist - therefore, he's clearly been modified. And don't pull the patient card with me - I'm spending my time responding to you, and so far I've been civil despite the transparent hypocrisy being employed here that's been criticized in the past. Furthermore, the next time you respond to me, I don't expect you to twist my words into presuming I'm arguing for the article to take one position on the matter when I've repeatedly make it clear a neutral statement is what should be placed - which is that we don't know if Shaun will age post-MQ. Lobsel Vith (talk) 19:18, September 1, 2018 (UTC)

Howdy folks, how's tricks? I've been tagged in to settle this. Lobsel, I can see no evidence supporting your idea that Shaun may have been modified to age. I have seen no evidence that synths are even capable of aging in that way. Your arguments seem to hinge on the idea that nothing supports Kasumi being human but she isn't relevant here. We are talking about the Shaun page, and only that matters here. If you want to start up on Kasumi again, go to the appropriate talk page. As is, there is no evidence to support anything other than the idea that Shaun will not age, and as such the article will reflect that. Lobsel, if you want that changed, find a source saying specifically what modifications the Father made to Shaun the synth. Otherwise, I consider this matter concluded. Richie9999 (talk) 19:53, September 1, 2018 (UTC)

I see no evidence that Shaun won't age post-Father modifying him during the destruction of the Institute, which is why I said there should be a neutral edit that reads that we don't know if Shaun will age post-MQ. There's no dialogue stating that Shaun won't age at that point - hence, why I felt it should be pointed out that we don't know. And I'd say that pointing out that the Kasumi page has speculation on it makes me wonder why this became such an issue - let's not try and pretend that my criticisms about how the moderation is handled are anything else but me pointing out the hypocrisy of allowing speculation on one page and condemning a neutral edit on another in the name of condemning speculation. Lobsel Vith (talk) 22:30, September 2, 2018 (UTC)

The ONLY evidence we have regarding Shaun the synth states that he will not age. This wiki does not need statements that induce speculation like "Maybe he will age post modification" We don't know what modifications were made, exactly, we don't know if this is possible, we're shown no indication that this is possible, if this was the case I'm certain it would have been stated much more clearly, but it wasn't. We just have EVIDENCE supporting that Shaun the Synth will not age. When you have EVIDENCE to support this idea that Shaun will age, please, bring it. Until then this matter is settled. Honestly the same goes for Kasumi for whom the only EVIDENCE we have points to her not being a synth as both the Railroad and the Institute say she's not one of theirs. But that's neither here nor there. Keep talk of Kasumi to the appropriate talk page. If you have evidence to support your idea that Shaun the Synth will age feel free to bring it up here at that time. Until then I consider this matter settled. Richie9999 (talk) 23:57, September 2, 2018 (UTC)

Comment

As per Findabair's request in the change history, I'm using the talk page for the capitalization nonsense.

It is being argued that the names of the items must be decapitalized as per Fallout Wiki:Editing guideline, which makes, yet again, no sense. Taking a look at the "Capitalization" section, something completely different is being said - namely "If it's not clear whether a name is a proper name or a common one, naming should be discussed and decided on a case-by-case basis". Alternatively, please point to the specific "rules" you people (esp. The Appalachian, Great Mara, and Findabair) are referring to.

In any case, all this nonsense could be avoided by simply using your brains. As I made it clear with my example, "The legendary weapon Shaun gives you isn't "Wazer wifle", and the quest isn't "The nuclear option" either. It's "Wazer Wifle" and "The Nuclear Option". It's "Alarm Clock". It's "Biometric Scanner". It's "Hot Plate". And it's "Vacuum Tube". Check in-game before changing anything!" It's an example even a 3 years old would understand. So either capitalize the words as they are in-game, or decapitalize each and every word for the sake of enforcing your so-called "rules".

As a sidenote, this wiki isn't about you. Don't force your nonsense onto the wiki and/or the people, and don't be playing power games and group pressure by crying to a friend admin.

I usually help out several wikis, but walk away from contributing in wikis which are in the grip of self-centered egos who rather enforce their "rules", which don't actually exist, instead of using their brains for a matter that doesn't even need explaining. If the item names are capitalized in the game, then that's the way it's written.

With that being said: This is the last time I corrected the item names in the items list.

Themystery (talk) 08:11, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Another example for the brainless:

It's not "Garden of eden creaton kit" and "G.e.c.k", it's "Garden of Eden Creaton Kit" and "G.E.C.K".

Themystery (talk) 09:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

While you are free to disagree with the rules on this wiki, keep in mind that they are still valid for all users, including yourself.

Unique items and quest names get capitalized, as they are referring to something specific, and are therefore proper nouns. The generic junk items you listed are common nouns, and do not get capitalized, for exactly the reason of being generic. Shaun never asks to bring the one specific alarm clock, any will do, as there are plenty in the game world. Bethesda may choose to not follow proper capitalization rules, the wiki's community back in the day decided to do so.

With that out of the way, your approach of insulting other editors is overly hostile and out of line. No one here needs to be told that they are less capable of understanding "than a 3 year old" or "brainless." As it already earned you a one week ban, I would recommend that you use it to calm down a little.

In reply to your sidenote, you are right, the wiki is not about any specific user. However, no one was playing power games or tried to excert group pressure, folks were simply trying remind you about our rules. Which by the way do exist, you just disagree with them, and therefore opt to ignore them. Oh, and no one called me in as "their admin friend." Believe it or not, I am totally capable of spotting brewing conflicts in recent changes on my own, without anyone having to tell me first.

To recap the events: your edits got reverted, people tried to help you by pointing to our editing guideline, you decided to disagree with both of them. While you did address the issue on this talk page, you also insulted everyone disagreeing with your point of view as being inferior in terms of intelligence. Which is quite ironic, since most folks here know the difference between proper and common nouns. In any case, if this is your standard behavior during an exchange of arguments, you might want to overthink it for the future.
–Findabair^{The benefit of the doubt is often doubtful.} 13:11, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

You're getting way ahead of yourself there, boy. It takes a massive amount of arrogance to twist the facts that much. You're an admin. Try act like one.

First of all, that's not at all what happened. Quite the opposite, in fact. Your edits were reverted, and you were tried to be helped by pointing to facts, and you decided to call on your admin buddies and ban me for doing what you yourself did first, namely telling you to "obey". Other than that, there was no insult. I did point out hard facts "to the brainless", but if that insults you because it applies to you, well, then it sucks to be you, but it is not really an insult per se, but more like truth. Harsh truth, I admit, but truth nonetheless. Pretty much like telling a police officer "one of us is an idiot" is not considered "insulting an official": you actually have to tell him he's an idiot. I did edit the little girl's talk page (the one who called you), decapitalizing it pretty much like you guys did and claim to be the "rules", but interestingly enough, that too was reverted, and your "guidelines" suddenly don't apply anymore. Second of all, you, as an admin, should not learn the difference but actually know the difference between "guidelines" and "rules". A simple google search will help you within minutes.

In any case, you were told to check the game before making any changes again, which you declined to do - which really begs the question why in the hell people who don't even play the game are given any kind of power in this wiki. Of course, you're given the benefit of the doubt... But as you yourself know very well, "the benefit of the doubt is often doubtful". People like you should not be given any power, because you know shit. Like your statement that "Shaun never asks to bring the one specific alarm clock, any will do" couldn't be further from the truth. For your information: Not any Alarm Clock will work. Wakemaster Alarm Clock will not work. Same goes for Microscope: High-Powered Microscope will not work. Same goes for Camera: Undamaged Camera and ProSnap Camera will not work. And as a little side note, sometimes a specific item, despite being precisely what Shaun asked for, is not accepted, and a different one of the very same item has to be brought to him in order to work and be accepted. There was a reason why you were told to check the game before making any changes, you know.

In any event, I'm really not interested in fighting you ignorant kids just to get a clean and truthful wiki. Good people offer their help - take it or leave it. And if moronic kids with too much arrogance and the incapacity to act like real admins are given any power, well, then that shows just how much one needs to walk away from helping it.

With that being said: No one cares about your personal opinions. Your job is to hold onto the game facts. And neither does anyone care about your bans. Grow up and fuck you very much (Now you can ban me for "insulting").

Themystery (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)