Talk: Caesar

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Improving the page[]

Near as I can tell, there's a hatchet to work through, maybe strap a fusion battery to for good measure. The current issues are:

1. Lede, which could be a succinct summary, and should identify the games he appears in.
2. Reference condensation, which means you have a dozen references appended without them being in their right spots.

I would like to prevent the occurrence of an edit war, so what improvements would you good editors like to see? Here's my take on a summary:

Caesar, born Edward Sallow,^[1] is the leader, dictator and co-founder of Caesar's Legion, aiming to create a new post-nuclear society combining the trappings of Ancient Rome with a ruthlessly pragmatic, totalitarian politics. His unlikely rise to power made him the greatest threat to the New California Republic since the Brotherhood War.

Caesar is a major character in Fallout: New Vegas, playing a central role in the Legion storyline, and whether he lives or dies changes the Legion endings. He does not play a role in other storylines. He has also been included in Fallout: Wasteland Warfare as a playable unit. Although the Legion was present in Van Buren, the canceled Fallout 3 by Black Isle Studios, its Caesar was a title and there were many Caesars since its foundation, making Sallow an original creation for Fallout: New Vegas.

【Ｔａｇａｚｉｅｌ】 ☏ 09:45, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

While that might be a good start, given the length of the article, the problem in my opinion is anything relatively short feels off in comparison to the rest of the page, even when that short piece of information is a perfectly adequate introduction to Caesar as a character. It's not a problem exclusive to Caesar's page, but given the sheer length that has been written on the character over the last decade or so, there needs to be a general clean up and consolidation of information about him. The page is objectively one of our longest. I'm not sure it really needs to be though. Aiden4017 (talk) 10:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

While it could be good to note the Van Buren Caesar's in the lede, they're not really the focus of the page. Edward Sallow is. Maybe move that information to Behind the scenes if it isn't already there? Aiden4017 (talk) 10:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

While it's better, there's still the issue of uniformity with other pages. The leads should be short and to the point, both for uniformity's sake and content organization. There's no reason for the page to be repeating itself between the lead and the biography section. As the current character article layout prescribes, the criteria to be met should introduce the character, their aliases, a short description, and the time the character lives/is encountered in the games. So starting point in the example above I noticed, should we be identifying the game itself or the year from the timeline? Great Mara (talk) 18:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

See the Rob House talk page for my thoughts on lede length/content overall; I'll add for this that I think the second paragraph of a meta summary of his importance to New Vegas, VB, and WW is unnecessary: the first and last are already clear from his status as the founder and leader of one of the main factions, the second can be handled by a banner/tag/whatever at the top directing readers to the dedicated pages for his and the Legion's non-canon VB counterparts. DirtyBlue929 (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

So, bumping this. Great Mara (talk) 20:40, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

There was further discussion on Discord, which I'll summarise into a couple of points. If anyone feels I've mischaracterised it, feel free to correct me.

• The short lead feels disproportionate to the length of the article.
• The article can be shorter, since there's details that are irrelevant to Caesar in places, as these details aren't related directly to Caesar or why he decided to do a specific action (for example Graham's defeat during the first battle of Hoover Dam - the relevant part for Caesar is that Graham lost, not how he lost, while the article currently covers the events of his defeat in great detail).

Moving past that, the following is my opinion. I think that we should focus on the rest of the article and then come back to the lead. The feeling that a short lead is disproportionate will keep coming back if the lead is the only thing that is changed. Aiden4017 (talk) 00:55, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

A discussion started on a talkpage is supposed to be held on the related talkpage. That aside, the article probably can be shorter, but the lead increasing be be increasing to be proportianate to the size of the article is also off. That would mean details that would be better organized by being in the background would be making their way into the lead. Kimball for instance, has a long lead with the article body not being that long with only the body and excluding peripheral sections like quotes and notes. He's really only physically in the game long enough to find C and then he's gone. In Caesar's case, I don't think his introduction should really extend anything past what's really known about him before he's met. Great Mara (talk) 01:34, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"Highly intelligent" revert[]

he has an intelligence of 4 and is not called intelligent by the narrative text as far as i've ever seen. this assertion is without substance. he literally just speaks confidently, uses big words, and performs historical imperialism. ed spent his competency on indulging his devotion to cruelty.

he was sent on a mission to study language and decided to build a death cult instead, permanently destroying huge swaths of history in the process. his rhetoric is crafted to serve his malignantly narcissistic ends. he built a land empire who torture people with sticks and straight-up rape children. he orders the death of all homosexuals, but may come to keep a captive queer as his favorite human being. he condemns medical advancement while owning a personal autodoc. he's a hollow hamfisted manipulator who bangs rocks together and beats his chest. he is terrified to die, and when he does, his creatures will devour each other and be steamrolled by external forces. there is no reason to begin the article with the phrase "a highly intelligent and educated man" unless the wiki community wishes to broadcast that editorial position.

i've replaced it by specifying his education as an anthropologist, which is actually informative, thematically fitting, and textually neutral. do not change it back again. the previous text was meritless.

it is frustrating that a peer would see me point out his low SPECIAL stat & stop thinking there, to restore an unsourced conjectural opening statement that served only to flatter a tyrant. tbh.--Anachorite (talk) 17:09, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The FNV guide notes that "this boy had a quick mind, he made for a scribe of uneven ability". I don't think there's anything wrong with calling him intelligent, intelligence is no bulwark against monstrosity (see Nuremberg trials). Tagaziel ☏ 15:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

substantiating it is more appropriate than just reverting it. prev version didnt convey real info and the prose and posture were off. i'm sure this citation could be used to construct an accurate, informative, and appropriate opening. always room for improvement. i appreciate your expertise --Anachorite (talk) 18:46, 26 March 2024 (UTC)