Talk: Toshiro Kago

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So in the Japanese version...[]

So for the Japanese version of fallout, could you just talk to the guy normally? I'm just curious really, it's be funny if you could just talk to him normally in the Jap version like "Hey man, you're in an Alien Spaceship!" and he'd be like "NO WAI!". I'm assuming they're not gonna do something weird like have him speak English in the Jap version. --Clean Up 20:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Huh. Good question.--Doop. 00:57, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Haha, I never thought about that, good question. 4RM0 01:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet money that in the Japanese version you can talk to him normally, but Paulson will still speak englis.Jose Payne 15:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Japanese players will probably understand him, but the lone wanderer in their game probably wont.123dadas|Guest

But the thing is, the Japanese version even has the entire dialogue dubbed in Japanese. If Toshiro speaks Japanese, obviously he's effectively speaking the same language as the Lone Wanderer AND everyone else. It'd be really weird if he speaks Japanese just like everyone and the player, yet he's the only one that the Japanese-speaking Wanderer can't understand. I'm still curious to know how the Japanese version dealt with this. :Starshade 14:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Probably in the same way someone who speaks English in the 21st century and someone who speaks English a thousand years before would have difficulty speaking with each other. The dialect Toshiro speaks is old, though not quite THAT old, but it could only take a small stretch of the imagination to take it to that level. OR they just pretend you can't understand, since it would take place in D.C. anyway (much like in anime or manga that has been dubbed into English, the characters still have difficulty understanding stated English speakers). - Guest; March 21, 2011

Mmm he curiously uses semi-modern japanese despite himself being so ancient. But in the japanese version they make him speak an even older japanese than in the english version. So the player really can't understand him. ...Or rather, isn't supposed to. That was their way of fixing it. Shikari~ 07:44, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I've thought the same thing and I've laughed for hours thinking about it.-Boba fett 32 (talk) 03:35, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

The recurring joke of Mothership Zeta?[]

Can anyone understand a word he says? They translated Jingwei's dialogue for O:A, why not this guy? Nitty 15:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

+10 Melee Damage for the win! Nitty 15:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

He's a samurai. It's Japanese. Samurai were the enemies of Ninja.

Totally untrue about Samurai and Ninja. Dude did you get your info from D&D? Samurai and Ninja were in some cases the same thing as far as caste.

Nah dude, that's pirates. 90.202.5.253 18:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yup,and now the samurai sword does more damage for me,and i still wonder why we didn't get power armor......ah well,we got stuff that was better than PA anyway. The Second Wolf Brother. 15:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The Samurai and the Ninja clans have been at war with eachother for centurys...thought it would be fun to just mention tht, theyre mortal rivals.--Toolazytomakeaaccount 18:17, October 17, 2009 (UTC) how can he be chinese, it's insulting to mix them up..he is Japanese.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Remember, on Operation: Anchorage is in a simulator. It's reasonable to assume that the translation of Jingwei's dialogue is provided by the sim via the pip-boy. Then again, maybe the Lone Wanderer knows Chinese. Kris (talk) 16:33, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Translate[]

Can someone with his dialogue files translate what he says? It would be interesting to know. Spoon 20:04, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm only a third-year student of Japanese, but I managed to translate the captive log with him speaking at least with relative ease (I'm just going to use the in-game romanization used for the subtitles):

• Nanda kono arisama ha? - "What is this (as in current circumstances or condition)?"
• Youkaihenge ka? - "A demon apparition?" (if you're familiar with Naruto the jutsu they use to assume the appearance of something else is called henge)
• Hanase, imasugu! - "Speak, immediately!"
• Kikoenuka, hanase, ima... - "Am I not heard? Speak, now..." 4RM0 20:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

'Hanase' could be either '話せ' (speak) or '放せ' (release [me] / let [me] go). Given the context and what we know of the aliens, I'm betting strongly that it's the latter. Arechi no majo 08:13, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

When i played i attacked him and none of the other NPCs turned hostile can someone tell me if this has happened to them so i can add it to the wiki Five Star Genral Of The Dead BigDog 21:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah that happened to me too. I did the same with Paulson and nobody cared so I guess the cowboy and samuari aren't very important Lancer AR 21:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Without knowing the Chinese characters for it you can't translate his name.

In classical Japanese, "Hanase" means "Free me". "Speak" means "Mouse".

I'm only up to the Engineering Core part of Mothership Zeta, but I went ahead and translated as much of Toshiro's dialogue (that hadn't already been translated here) as I could. I don't think I made any serious errors, but if I did, feel free to correct. Wiki bullet formatting is apparently even harder than classical Japanese, so do forgive/help out with the few snags. Cheers! - J.H. 24.145.23.15 06:49, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I played through the Cryo Lab/Storage, had some more dialogue with Toshiro, and added that to the translations. Corrections welcome! The romanized Japanese here plays fast and loose with word spacing and the marking of long vowels. - J.H. Arechi no majo 08:12, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I tried shooting his sword out of his hand with silenced 10mm, and he went into a fighting posture with fists up but didn't turn "red hostile"...he just seemed angry at me and said some things that aren't translated here. I image some of it is something like, "Yo--give me back my sword!" Faran Brygo 19:19, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

disappeared?[]

After I disabled a couple of generators I couldn't find him anymore and he didn't appear when I went through the teleporter to next part of the ship. I received no notification of his death and I can't find his living or dead body. I really want his armor and sword but I just can't find him.

He can be find in the living quarters after you complete the second quest.He is in a room with other dead aliens.If you can't find him there he will appear at the final quest...so don't worry

Yes, this is true. I've reinserted it. --Phiont 17:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone confirm this?[]

Someone said that Toshiro Kago was following them in the wastes... Is that for real? I dont have the DLC yet.....--BloodOmelet 00:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Those damned names[]

It is impossible to translate his name without knowing the character(s) used. Kago could very well be written as "carriage (litter)" (駕籠)、but also could be "basket" (籠), or even "blessing" (加護). As a realistic possibility, the "blessing" character comes to mind since it is a fairly common family name in some parts of Japan. As for his first name, it is unclear of where the accent is. Toshiro could be Toushirou or Toshirou, and there are countless combination of characters that could be used so it is impossible to narrow down the possibilities. It is unclear how the author on the Notes section managed to translate Toshiro as "talented/intelligent," but no such adjective exists. It is possible however that s/he mistook "rookie, amateur, green" which is shi-ro-u-to. This shirouto is often slanged and pronounced in a compound fashion as to-u-shi-ro, which sounds like a person's name but in actuality is referring to a person lacking experience.

That's because one possible kanji combination for Toshiro can mean talented/intelligent, and is not an adjective in its own right. I removed the name translation bullet from the Notes section for the same reasons described above. 4RM0 18:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Anyone think that his personal name might be a reference (albeit a tenuous one) to the iconic samurai-portraying actor Toshiro Mifune? Arechi no majo 08:27, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Disappear?[]

Ok, so does he dissapear after This Galaxy Aint Big Enough... or doesn't he? Currently, the article states both. --Sentinel 101 15:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

In my game, he went away after that quest, so I'd assume that is what happened. He dissapeared for others too, and everyone I asked had him disapear so I guess he left! -GaidenGuy123 05:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

No, he remains on the ship, but he doesn't initiate dialogue with the Lone Wanderer anymore, so it's best to kill him and get his armor.

What? No Universal Translator©?[]

I found it very disappointing that there was no "universal translator" to allow you to communicate with Toshiro.

Well, that isn't all I found disappointing with MZ, but it's the only one concerned with this article.

Ditto, made me sad that I couldn't talk to him. Honestly, I think it would'a been cool to take him on as a follower or something, maybe after passing a speech challenge saying that you're a warlord back on Earth so he'd pledge himself to you. Oh well, I released him from his torment aboard the ship, he has nifty armor and I really dig his sword. 96.18.21.198 00:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

umm A universal Translator?? are you guys serious? I Think it makes the Add on more effective with the connections between you and the other characters, the fact that you cant communicate with the man makes it that more intresting to see how his interactions thourought the story pan out. Yes Your language is English, he is from Japan and speaks only japanese.. In other words that fact that you cant speak to him makes it slightly more realistic, in a sci-fi setting which is a nice touch from bethesda. but you all have one common goal in the add on.. where communication is hard but not neccessary to complete your goals. TheRepublicOfDave 15:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If you guys are thinking "Wait, how come General Jingwei had a english subtitle?"... I have two theories... First, it was a simulation... Finally, your PiP-boy can translate Mandarin Chinese since you are able to read the skill book about Chinese Ops Stealth... They might have also tried to make it realistic.... After all, they said they wanted to suprise the players right?.... Sorry for bad grammar and confusing paragraph here....--BloodOmelet 23:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd say it was the simulation. After all, it was meant to trains US soldiers, it stands to reason they had been prepared for hte fact that not every soldier could speak chinese. --DragonJTS^{Leave me a message} 02:31, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The version that the Pip-Boy can translate Mandarin is impossible. In Velvet Curtain quest, on the holotape with bank password, there is a short Chinese sentence "Zhou ni haiyun", which isn't translated. So it's simulation.

You don't read the Chinese Ops manual, you watch the pretty pictures. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 05:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Rothessy 22:46, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It requires a Pipboy to enter the sim. Although it is said that a Pipboy can properly interact with the sim, it does not deny the fact that ALL Chinese texts can be/are translated. RobCo produced both terminals and the Pipboys. As for the Velvet Curtain, wouldnt it be strange for Chinese spies to simply speak Mandarin on the streets? To draw no attention, they recorded most of the holotapes in English to prevent people from suspecting to hear "chinese babling". It is possible that the holotape was programmed not to have the mandarin part translated? Or that that the pipboy can only translate whole sentenses or holotapes in the same language? --Radnus 81.205.186.16 21:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Can we get more translations from someone who speaks Japanese? =)

In particular I'd like to know what he says in his Captive Recording

Well, "Nanda kono arisama ha(ka)?" "Who the hell are you guys?" (no sure, because ari+sama seem weird, but sama in a question is asking about someone's background. And since this is clearly a question I think the it should end with ka.

"Youkaihenge ka?" Youkai=evil/super natural spirit (No, Demon is Akuma, Akurayou or Oni) henge=form adoption, often illusion; therefore "illusion create by evil/super natural spirit(s)?"

"Hanase, imasagu!"="Speak, Right now"

"Kikoenuka, hanase, ima...<zap>"="Didn't you heard me, Speak, Righ...<zap>" Scarvet 14:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Behind an un-openable door[]

The page says that he wanders the ship after the main quest is done, but on my game he's behind a "This door is activated elsewhere" door to the right of the bridge's entrance with no apparent method of opening, standing still. Has this happened to anyone else?—Moonraker0 21:34, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That little girl is supposed to open the door in the middle of the fight with the other MS and say something like "oh it's the samurai man.... jaddajadda", I'm not 100% sure about this but after a whiles travel on wasteland and upon returning to bridge the door could "reset" to the default closed position possibly trapping characters inside it. This never happened to me and from the sound of it your littlehelper didn't even let him in.--85.29.76.50 19:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

list of what Toshiro says in Japanese taken from article and discussion[]

Just a rough reference to those of you who want to study Japanese through what Kago is saying. Order of list is article top to bottom, then Discussion top to bottom. Hanase はなせ could be speak 話せ, release (e.g. a ball, make distance) 離せ or free 放せ. I chose "free". If Kago was restrained in some manner supposedly in the captive recording (someone please confirm I don't have Mothership Zeta), then it should be "free (me)". I would also like to add some insight to the discussions page regarding some translations. Mouse is a 謙譲語, or a modest way of speech. Mouse is to order someone to state or inform. Koko ga doko nanoka mouse "State where this place is." In classical Japanese, a polite way to start a conversation to someone of higher rank/social status was, "moushi ageru" 申し上げる　meaning "Informing (you)." Casually this could be translated as "Let me tell you (speak to you)." So, mousu 申す　is not exactly to "speak" or "talk." Youkai-henge is youkai (demon, evil spirit, etc) henge (incarnate, incarnation, but literally 'change into'). So 妖怪変化＝devil incarnate, or even "visible evil spirit." arisama 有様＝condition, situation. So 4RM0 was correct on those translations. As I looked at the translation in the Article page, it is pretty accurate. Normally in formal Japanese question marks "?" and exclamation marks "!" aren't used, but to make the list easy to compare with the article and discussion page, I added them in whenever appropriate. There are some inconsistencies with the article, but I thought that some of the exclamation marks were inappropriate to the dialogue spoken so I changed to the normal circular period. Please forgive me for the inconvenience this has caused. I am a Japanese just graduated IU with BA for linguistic anthropology this spring, currently looking for a job lol. Sorry for the long post, didn't mean to spam.

御主は何者？此処は何処だ？

拙者の剣！拙者の剣は何所だ？

さっぱり解らない。此処が何処なのか申せ。拙者の剣はどうした？

拙者の剣は何所だ。今すぐ返さぬか。

何を言っておるのだ。さっぱり解らん。何とかしてくれ！

何とかせぬか！拙者の剣は一体何所にあるのか？

何を言っておるのだ。この地に見覚えはない。一体拙者に何をした？

拙者の剣を今すぐ返すのだ。早く返さぬか。

御主は一体何者？拙者は何故此処にいる？

拙者の剣はどうなった？ええい、早く返さぬか！

妖怪から身を護るには剣が要る。

何が起こったのか、見当つかぬ。

妖術で拙者を捕らえた妖怪め、このままでは終らぬぞ！

剣を奪われてしまった。耐えがたき屈辱。

剣をすぐ取り返さねばならぬ！

人を嘲るな！御主の物言いはさっぱり解らん。

拙者を助けたくば、拙者の剣を探し出せ。

何と？何を望んでおるのだ？何故御主の言う事が解らぬのだ？

御主、何故そのように話す？何か所望の物でもあるのか？

おお、拙者の剣！返してもらうとは忝い。

おお、これこそ拙者の剣！忝い！

済まぬが、拙者自らこれから起こる事に備えねばならぬ。

邪魔をするな。

何だこの有様は？

妖怪変化か？

放せ、今すぐ！

聞こえぬか、放せ、今・・・

--71.194.202.59 07:48, October 6, 2009 (UTC)

the door in the observation deck[]

sally went thru the side of the door but is just standing on the other side. is there a trick to get thru the door or am i missing something?

that happened to me to the only way i found to fix it is to reload a save -guest

Samari Sword[]

I wanted to give Toshiro his sword but couldn't find him in Engineering. Now I have found him in the Living Quarters but there doesn't appear to be any option but to pick pocket it to him - is this a bug or how it's scripted? ---- Plcpress

BAMF[]

Is it just me, or is this guy pretty much the baddest character in the game? He took on Aliens with those damnable shields and Alien energy weapons with some ancient steel armor and a SWORD! Raymorn 17:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Hell yeah he is, his armor isn't even steel either. Classic samurai armor was mostly laquered leather. He is pretty sick.Quakingphear 01:43, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah,he looks like he could be gordon freeman of fallout. 90.220.236.208 16:20, July 31, 2010 (UTC)lolnooob

Actually there were some Japaese armours made from forged steel and even chain, though they are rare and most steel/metal japanese armour was Kote(gauntlets) and Sode (sholder guards). Almost all Kabuto (Helmets) samurai wore were also metal. though most Dou (chest pieces) were Lamellar leather works with few being iron/steel.

Possible Toshiro Mifune Reference?[]

Definate Toshiro Mifune reference. His mon is the exact one Toshiro Mifune's character wears in Yojimbo and Sanjuro. 24.60.75.54 12:50, November 17, 2011 (UTC)Rum

The fact that he is a samurai, it's named Toshiro and the way he talks like the japanese actor may be enough to conclude that is a reference to Toshiro Mifune, who played various roles as a samurai in a lot of movies by Akira Kurosawa.

What do you think?

Well, Kurosawa influenced The Magnificent 7, Fist Full of Dollars, and Star Wars with his movies, so why not. Even Toshiro Mifune himself was iconic and his roles inspirational. I actually can't believe I missed that my self. Quakingphear 01:45, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Toshiro is not such an unusual name. Without a full name correspondance, that's nothing to go on. And he's a samurai and he talks the way he does, because that's American pop culture's exposure to the Japanese. Not a reference to Kurosawa, just a caricature informed by samurai movies in general. No reference here.--Gothemasticator 02:13, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much what Gothemasticator said. To be honest the first thing I noticed when I saw Toshiro was his Ieyasu Tokugawa helmet. xD Couldn't help it. Shikari~ 07:46, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Different eyes?[]

Tosrisho has a more squinted pair of eyes when compared to setting your character to asian. Should this be noted? [IM NOT RACIST] gun_with_utters 15:10, June 3, 2010 (UTC) GatlingBrahmin

The Lone Wanderer's mother is canonically African American, and besides which you can make his/her eyes more slanted in the editor (as opposed to using the default Asian characteristics). On that note, yes, you are racist. - Guest; March 21, 2011

Well of course "Asian" covers quite a large continent, and two people from different areas of Asia can look very different, so its rather pointless to compare two "Asian" characters, really.

8th century?[]

I'm sorry, but where are people getting this date of abduction from? I have seen no in-game or canonical out of game information that states he is from Japan circa the 900s. Furthermore, I would like to state that samurai didn't even exist until the 12th century, or 11th at the absolute earliest, which is a few centuries later. - Guest; March 21, 2011

I'm agree. Theoretically, the only information we have it comes from the symbol of Oda on his armor, dating from the mid-16th century (and again theoretically before the death of Nobunaga Oda in 1582, one of the most powerful man of the Japan in this century). Itachou ^[~talk~] 15:29, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Confusing wording[]

Taken from the article:

" At the beginning of the Tokugawa shogunate in March 24, 1603, used of "mon" (crests) spread for all classes from peasant to samurai, and are not any more reserved for aristocratic families and clans, so Toshiro took for him and placed the "wood sorrel" mon on his old okegawa dô, a mon popular among the samurai class since the swards are symbol of samurai spirit and three leaves represent compassion, wisdom and virtue."

What? Valnatix 16:29, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

I edited it a bit for typos and clarity. Take another look and see if it's more understandable. --Kris 16:38, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. In fact, "mon" (crests in Japan) are only authorized for aristocratic families and clans (Oda, Hojo, Sanada etc) before the Tokugawa shogunate. Samurai and normal families are not allowed to have a personal mon, a symbol for his family. The mon used by Toshiro is never used before the Tokugawa shogunate - so belongs to no family or clan. If he uses it on his armor, he has chosen for his family, so that the Tokugawa shogunate have begin. Itachou ^[~talk~] 16:42, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

That's pretty much how I read it, but there was at least one typo, some awkward wording, and I replaced the word "mon" after the first usage with the word "crest" for clarity. --Kris 16:44, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

No good, sorry but it's not crests in fact, it's just a similar thing, even Wikipedia call it "mon". Itachou ^[~talk~] 16:51, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

I understand your dedication to the subject matter, but for this wiki I feel the word "crests" is close enough, and avoids confusion. --Kris 19:11, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

But crest is incorrect even in western terminology for what we mean. The crest sits atop a coat of arms, which a mon is comparable to, not the crest. I feel that this is less a matter of clarity as respect for the Japanese, who would take this very seriously indeed. A mon is very different to a crest, and to an extent a coat of arms. Furthermore, the mon that he bears shows his loyalty and the fact that he fights for the Oda clan, not even necessarly the Shogunate itself. The article says "mon (crest)" already so there is no need to change the entire article to crest. Lastly, in this period the peasants would most certainly not have had mons, but ji-samurai (similar to small-time feudal lords) may have had a set of armour such as this, but would have still been subject to one of the great clans, hence the Tokugawa mon. This therefore implies that he was a ji-samurai subject to the Oda clan, and is therefore using their mon. Mon is correct, not crest as they are different things entirely. 22:07, July 2, 2011 (UTC) Hope this helps to solve your debate :).

I revised it again. How's that for accuracy? --Kris 03:22, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Even easier answer for you, get rid of all approximations and just call in "mon", and simply link it out to Wikipedia. So if anyone want to argue what a mon is equivalent to, they can do so over there and we can get on with Fallout stuff here. 03:32, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Best solution? I agree. --Kris 03:36, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the history lesson, but that is better now, even if I disagree somewhat with the 'status of all classes' part, but I won't change it because I can't see that anyone else will care particularly. At least that is sorted now, and thanks for taking my opinion into account :). Right, now for Fallout... ;)

Kris, the purpose of a Wiki is not to make it more accesible for everyone while destroying the words and cultures, it aims to be accurate in every respect. Just because it's a different culture and different words that we must ignore them and put something similar but alternately wrong.

And also, in the Wood Sorel mon, there is no question of swords but swards, please stop putting swords in place of swards, which is false. The swards in this mon is the symbol of the samurai spirits and the three leaves the values ​​attached to the samurai - compassion, wisdom and virtue [1], so it became popular among the samurai class in the Tokugawa shogunate.

For the rest, you can trust me, Azuchi–Momoyama period, the beginning of Edo period, Bakumatsu and the Meiji period is something that I know best in my knowledge ;). Itachou ^[~talk~] 16:40, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

Um "crest" IS the most similar word I can think of. English doesn't represent the whole western world. And in various languages crest means more than in a coat of arms. So technically it IS a crest. Because it represents a whole clan or family. I suggest just leaving mon, but putting crest between parenthesis. Okay if you're a history lover, but chances are that there is people who will just be confused with the whole wording. On a side note, I do "translate" words in my language. I dislike using japanese words while speaking english. It plain sounds dumb. Using a replacing word -shouldn't- hurt anyone's feelings. Keimei~ 07:55, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Tagged Skills[]

The article text says he has no tagged skills, but his character box lists his tagged skills as Melee, Unarmed and Small Guns. So which is it? Drake Clawfang (talk) 18:55, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Rampant unsourced information[]

This is something I've debated off-site as well, and I think it's about time we discuss this further here on the article:

1. Do we have confirmation that Kago was from any specific point in time? Him utilizing ceremonial armour and weapons alone is not verification that he was from that time period. Not only could they have been passed down to him from his ancestors, but for all we know (this is not a serious explanation), he could even be just a cosplay enthusiast.
2. Do we have confirmation that he is a samurai? Again, the traditional garb could have been passed down, or it may even be a replica.
3. Even if someone does discover evidence for the prior two questions, do we have confirmation that Kago took part in battle for the Oda clan? ^寧靜 15:08, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I have brought this up before, twice. In my time doing kendo, I have watched individuals do reenactments in centuries-old armor, with family mon on their do. We don't know any of these things and any time period is not stated. I suggested we rewrite in favor of describing the armor, the mon, and his language, but not venturing past what we know. -kdarrow ^{take her for a spin!} 15:14, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this unsourced information comes from a vague description in the official game guide that doesn't actually outright say whether A or B is correct. The usage of "Appears" & "Suggesting" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that we're being objective in our coverage. ^寧靜 15:19, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

IIRC, most of this page was written by Itachou. Not sure if anyone is still in touch with them. Great Mara (talk) 15:20, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Ahhhh, Itachou. I miss that guy. Pretty sure he's gone for good, though, although it wouldn't hurt if I sent him a message. ^寧靜 15:23, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

The Game Guide directly states the answers to 1 and 2, as, regardless of it being ceremonial or actual armor and weaponry, it is still direct evidence of his role and occupation. Suggesting otherwise, such as that the wording of the game guide is anything but objective, would be speculation unto itself, completely unsourced, such as saying his very specific armor and insignias could be anything other than indication of his place in Japanese society and clanship. On said note of clanship, Kago is indicated by both the Game Guide and game to be a Samurai warrior, wearing the clothing of a clan from the mid-late 16th century. This armor, inscribed with his clan colors and symbol, would indicate his belonging clan, in the same vein a tribe's tattoos indicate what tribe they come from. JCB2077 (talk) 15:35, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

It does not directly state anything, and in fact uses an abundance of weasel wording that cannot be used to outright verify the claims being made here. This is especially notable when the game guides are supplementary canon to be taken with a grain of salt. We need more to work off of, or we're going to have to remove this information. ^寧靜 15:47, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Two things:

1. Path of least assumptions; ignoring obvious elements of his appearance because we can't be sure is bad wiki form.
2. If we can't be sure, we should describe things as they are and note similarities, allowing readers to draw their own conclusions. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 16:01, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

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1. The path of least assumptions is an argument from personal opinion and is not warranted here. As usual, I use my Liberty Prime example, as well as the real-world weapons policy as examples of how even the most obvious things using this argument can still be easily proven false.
2. This point I do agree with. I could easily re-write the information given and remove the weasel-wording, while still retaining what's important. But I want to see if there's any additional sources to take into consideration before I move forward with a re-write. ^寧靜 16:06, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

While not everyone may be familiar with the "Liberty Prime example", the real-world weapon policy doesn't exactly apply to dialect, clothing, or much else about Toshiro. To elaborate on the "modern" aspect, the matter has little to do with the Divergence (other than Kago being abducted by aliens), and the armor coloring, type, and use of mon thereof do matter. Given consultation with an associate who specifically studies and researches Koryū Bujutsu Ryūha (old Japanese martial arts schools/styles pre 1868), whom I consulted with on a similar topic regarding the War glaive head modifications, examination of his appearance, speech, and so on very much supports the given paragraph from the Fallout 3 game guide. Regardless of its "grain of salt" and supposed weasel word interpretations, the guide is an objective and majorly correct source, mostly written and verified by those who worked on the game and its DLC. To say the removal or rewrite of information able to be discerned by experts or those otherwise well-versed in the craft would be no different than removing crucial information from an article simply because someone not versed or educated in the craft or topic may not get it upon multiple viewings.

To quote their statements on the matter: "Hypothetically, if Toshiro Kago were in fact a modern Japanese man and was perhaps a Koryū Bujutsu (old school Japanese martial arts) practitioner who may have been wearing his armor, several important points indicate otherwise. He is not familiar with the concept of being in Space, and the fact that he's in a Space Craft. The dialogue in Japanese would have indicated that he were familiar if he were indeed from the 20th or 21st Centuries. His language is inconsistent with that of Japanese speakers of the 20th and 21st Centuries, and it is nigh impossible that he could be a modern Japanese man, because of the fact that he uses the first person pronoun "Sessha" 拙者, a dated pronoun that nobody in either century utilizes, this is a pronoun characteristic of the 1600s. Modern Japanese speakers use "Ore" 俺 "Watashi" 私, and for older speakers "Ware" 我. Nobody uses "Sessha" unless if you're acting or being comedic/ironic. In addition as a side note, the vast majority of native Japanese speakers refer to swords as "刀" (katana) outside of specific terms such as Kendō 剣道, the martial art, and Kenjutsu 剣術, swordsmanship, versus "剣" Ken in general usage. Both words mean sword, however Toshiro Kago uses the word "Ken" in reference to his sword "拙者の剣わどこだ？ Sessha no Ken wa doko da? Where is my sword?". Both "刀" (Katana, alternatively read as "Tō) and "剣" (Ken, alternatively read as Tsurugi) respectively are from China, the latter formerly exclusively referring to double edged blades (read in Chinese, and still known to this day as "Jian"), but later came to be a general term for swords that extended to single edged blades as well, but as a general term, this word in the modern context is largely used by martial artists belonging to Koryū (old schools of martial arts predating 1868) and historians alike in regards to swords, these being minority groups in Japan. The vast majority of Japanese speakers will call a "katana" a "katana", lest the Kanji reading changes, such as the case in 日本刀, Nihontō (Japanese sword)." With this in mind and in effect, the proposition should remain that, should the article be rewritten, regardless of the stated discerning evidence and proof of Kago's identity or dissenting opinions or information, the notion of Toshiro Kago not being from the past, and subsequently isn't a samurai should not be humored. JCB2077 (talk) 19:02, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Period specific dialect is an important point to consider, and would be more than enough to have as a source to back up Kago's general age. With that being said, I'm not entirely comfortable with the thought of having hearsay as a verified source. You say that your consultant has dedicated themselves to study and research on relevant factors here, so I wonder if they might be able to provide some personal context? This would be a fascinating thing to have on our wiki so long as it's done correctly.

I still haven't seen anything though to support the claim that not only was Kago involved in battle, but that he was involved in multiple battles and even continued on to fight for other clans after the fall of the Oda clan. These are pretty substantial claims that not even the game guide suggests. ^寧靜 19:22, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

The consultant in question does not have a wiki account. However, elaboration is needed on the "personal context" statement. JCB2077 (talk) 19:36, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Note that I'm not saying we should not rewrite the article, Leon, just take the path of least assumptions: Kago is intended to be an outsider and a frozen remnant of Earth's history, and we should keep that in mind; I feel that stating he's possibly a modern man is something not suggested by the game, so it'd be misleading to include in the article.

JCB's quotes on dialect are something that's perfect for BtS btw. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 19:44, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Do you think they might be interested in writing something we can use as a verifiable reference? It doesn't necessarily have to be on the wiki, or maybe he even has case studies, whether from him or from someone else that we can refer to. ^寧靜 19:46, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

I just got a message back, they said I'll hear back from them about getting verifiable references. JCB2077 (talk) 19:52, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

That would be amazing. I'll be looking forward to anything that they might be able to provide us. Having confirmation that Kago was from that specific time period would be a pretty damn cool thing to have verified here. ^寧靜 20:02, September 30, 2020 (UTC)

Hi there! I am the resource JCB was referring to. I just recently joined the wiki, and I would like to first make a disclaimer that I do not write or have any scholarly material published that can be cited for the wiki. That being said, I have friends in the Koryū community that I keep in close contact with who do have access to sources that can be cited, albeit subject matter such as linguistics is perhaps better suited to be cited from Wikipedia, vice citing a Japanese language text book for the wiki (as mentioned before, it is better to go off of a proper source versus hearsay). For all other subject matter, there is a considerable amount of English sources, however the bulk of material as a whole independent of language which can be referred to does have tendancy to be in Japanese only, which may prove problematic for citing in an English wiki, or verifying/translating for non-speakers of the language for that matter. I am currently reaching out to my own contacts to properly verify and cite the material as detailed in the article's current iteration. It is to my understanding that the individual known as "Itatchou" had written the bulk of the current article for Toshiro Kago. If Itatchou was in fact born in France and by extension, is possibly French themselves, I have a degree of certainty that what they detailed in the article does hold water, as there is a cavalcade of accurate French resources on Japanese history that they could have easily drawn from, but had simply failed to cite. What they have stated in regards to battle participation is logical and has basis in history, and is not pure speculation. However they did fail to properly cite the information listed in the wiki. The game guide does in fact properly identify the armor as being from the Momoyama period, as the Gusoku worn by Toshiro is in fact identical to several examples from that period, and as such would bolster the fact of him being from that time period. Armor piece color as mentioned by Itatchou is in fact related to different groups/clans in Japan, however again, external sources are needed for a proper citation. I will be sure to post and update when the relevant information has been gathered.

It is also worth noting that Toshiro Kago outright calls himself a Samurai in game. DLC05SamuraiScenesBridgeTopic reads as such: "Iretekure! Sessha wa eirian deha gozaran. Sessha wa samurai nari. Otanomi mosu!" 入れてくれ! 拙者は「エイリアン」ではござらん . 拙者は侍なり. お頼み申す！ "Please let me in! I am not an alien. I am a samurai. I beg of you!". I believe that this is worth quoting in the page indicating that Toshiro is a samurai, in addition to the other evidence and material that points towards this. Expanding upon what JCB quoted from me, Sessha is indeed associated with older speech. The writers in charge of Toshiro's dialogue seemed to have went for Early Modern Japanese (its usage spanning from the early 1600s into the mid 1800s), versus late middle Japanese which you would get out of somebody during the earlier parts of the Sengoku Jidai (1467 to 1615). In terms of coherence, the dialogue is good and gets the point across, both in message and the fact that Toshiro is from the past, though a nit pick worth nothing is the inconsistency in Politeness in the dialogue, the aforementioned line being a pretty good example.

In Japanese, if you are speaking, you use a specific tone in politeness/formality through your word choice, and you consistently use that tone throughout your sentence. "Deha gozaran" "ではござらん" for example roughly means "am not" in the sentence, "gozaran" being an older form of "arimasen", which is a negative possessive verb that's polite in nature (in both the case of gozaran and arimasen). This is contrasted by "Iretekure", "入れてくれ", where "Kure" くれ is an impolite form of the verb "kureru" "くれる", to give. You do not shift formality suddenly whilst speaking like that. Word and sentence structure wise, the line is fine, but it is not something a native speaker would say, granted, the voice actor of course was paid to say the line as it was written. It is certainly better than the broken Mandarin spoken by the "Chinese Commandos" in Tranquility Lane, though it is an important notable oversight worthwhile to mention.

As I had stated before, I am not exactly sure about posting/citing language books for the "Behind The Scenes" portion in regards to Toshiro Kago's speech given the nature of the wiki. As such, I will be linking below various wiki entries of the words I had described, immediate edits will of course not be made to the page, but these will be utilized when the "Behind the Scenes" portion of the page is being written.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/くれる https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ござる https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/刀 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/剣 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/拙者 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns

I look forward to the improvement of the page, and again, I will be sure to update and share the proper citations once they have been gathered so that we will be able to do so.

--ManintheFens (talk) 22:34, October 1, 2020 (UTC)