Talk: Mob/Archive 8

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page.

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

History Section

Should there be a history section? There is one for blocks and one for items so i don't see how you can't do the same for mobs, it is not that important, but it would be nice to see– Unsigned comment added by UltraCatalyst007 (talk • contribs) at 19:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC). Sign comments with ~~~~

Im Neutral about this, but i will ask some others to see if this is okay. James Haydon (talk) 19:33, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Support. It would be consistent with the block and item pages, and would be pretty useful to have. AlienAgent124 (talk) 16:37, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay Dlljs has already made plans to add it and they are testing such an idea in their sand box. James Haydon (talk) 17:08, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

This has been completed by me and Dlljs and is now published. NoNcLaNKing (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Adding the Warden to this page

Since the Warden is a confirmed upcoming addition in 1.17, I really think it ought to be listed here. While it's not technically an "upcoming" mob by the definition of the style guide, since it isn't in a snapshot yet, keep in mind, this page also lists mobs that are not confirmed to be added at any known time, mobs that are confirmed to never be added anytime in the foreseeable future, mobs that have only been confirmed in the form of 2D concept art, and even the Red Dragon, a mob without even a single official image associated with it. Meanwhile, the Warden has appeared in numerous official screenshots and video clips, and is confirmed to be coming to the game within a known release window. It doesn't really make sense to me that it shouldn't be allowed to be listed here, when mobs that probably won't ever even be added can be listed here. There really ought to be some agreement reached in which there is a standard for documenting known upcoming mobs that are not yet in snapshots. AlienAgent124 (talk) 17:04, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

But it still has not appeared in any snapshot yet, therefore we need to wait before we add it. See MCW:FUTURE for more info. James Haydon (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I know what the style guide says, but the issue is that MCW:FUTURE only takes into account features that are in development versions, and says to exclude known confirmed features that are not yet in development versions. My opinion is that confirmed features not yet in development versions should also be listed here as well, but under a different label, such as "planned". Otherwise, under the current system, known confirmed information is being neglected, while information about content that is not confirmed to ever be added is not. AlienAgent124 (talk) 17:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

If you want a rule in the style guide to be changed to something you agree with, then you should post said request in the Style guide's talk page. James Haydon (talk) 17:18, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I Support this, it could just stay in mentioned mobs until it gets a snapshot, then it could move to upcoming mobs until caves and cliffs releases UltraCatalyst007 (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay but the snapshots with the warden will come eventually, you don't have to wait until its release to see them. So lets just wait until said snapshot is released. James Haydon (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

What happens when more future mobs are announced though? This same problem will happen again, with announced mobs not being listed because they're not in snapshots yet, even while mentioned and scrapped mobs do get to be listed. This isn't just about the Warden specifically, it's about the rules regarding which mobs are allowed to be mentioned here. AlienAgent124 (talk) 18:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Because most of the mentioned mobs are most likely not going to be added unlike the Warden. James Haydon (talk) 18:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

But that's exactly my point. If mobs unlikely to be added can be on the list of mobs, why can't mobs that are definitely going to be added soon? AlienAgent124 (talk) 18:49, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I think it could go to the Mentioned mobs category, because as AlienAgent124 said above, mobs that aren't included on the game are there, redirecting to the Mentioned features articles. Supeika (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Comment: See the MCT:Style guide#Proposal: a change to MCW:FUTURE discussion for a main discussion related to this change. Supeika (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Possible Category Changes (and also discussion about the Pufferfish)

The Pufferfish have a problem. First, they do NOT belong in Passive, they attack you if you get close to them like any hostile mob, however, they are not hostile, technically they COULD be hostile, but... no, they fit best in neutral, but even that does not seem right. Personally I think Pufferfish should get their own category, Like Defensive or something. And it not just the Pufferfish, There just seems to be a problem with the categories in general, Just as a quick list of the things i would change (if i knew how to edit pages with images).

PASSIVE: add the Glow Squid, I just think the upcoming category should just be removed, if something gets a snapshot, it is very much in the game and available to everyone. And a minor thing, swap strider and squid, it would look better.

DEFENSIVE: I already explained why pufferfish should be here.

NEUTRAL: If Upcoming was removed, goat goes here, swap piglin and panda for alphabetical reason, and remove baby mobs, they are 1 mob, piglins are the same as baby piglins, there are not baby zombies seperated from zombies, so make it consistant.

HOSTILE: No real problems, just change the order for the zoglin, zombie, and zombie villager to zombie villager, zombie, and zoglin.

COMPOUND/COMBINATION ETC.: Jockeys are in included in the list, but not all of them, they should have a seperate category for the cave spider jockey, chicken jockey, hoglin jockey, ravager rider, skeleton horseman, spider jockey, and strider jockey. Just name the category any word that means combination

TAMEABLE: This would include every mob that gives the player the advancement "Best Friends Forever" when tamed, this includes Axolotls(1.17), cats, donkeys, horses, llamas, mules, parrots, skeleton horses, trader llamas(llamas spawned with wandering trader, i count as different mob), and wolves. This does not apply to ocelots anymore, or foxes? im not sure about foxes though.

TRUSTABLE: Ocelots and Foxes.

UTILITY/GOLEMS: Not sure if this one would be good, but iron/snow golems could have seperate category.

CREATIVE ONLY: Zombie Horses have spawn eggs in creative, so not unused.

COMMANDS ONLY: This would include the other unused mobs, also swap illusioner and killer bunny for alphabetical reason, and add the elder guardian ghost, they are also unused/command only.

JOKE MOBS: Alphebetize them and change pink wither to friendly wither.

UNIMPLEMENTED: Combine with mentioned mobs and move pigman here because they where never available to the public unlike rana and human

etc.

Overall, Categories for this page are broken and need to be fixed.UltraCatalyst007 (talk) 07:44, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Pufferfish are passive, not neutral or hostile. Hostile means that they can chase you, while pufferfish can't chase you. Their attacks are defensive. TheGreatSpring (talk) 08:05, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Well there is no such thing as a "defensive" mob, i think it should be referred to as a neutral mob. James Haydon (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I think that we need to settle this to decide how we need to categorize mobs. I like the idea of defensive, trustable and tameable, but their behaviors are still either passive or neutral, so we shouldn't be changing that. However, Some changes are needed, so I'll list how mobs could be classified:

Proposal 1:

Passive: Mobs that never attack the player, nor cause damage intentionally (Pufferfish never attacks, but activates a poison aura).

Neutral: Mobs that attack the player if they attack first, or the player doesn't meet the requirements to avoid being attacked by these mobs, leading to the first line (this one) be the requirement to being attacked. (For example, piglins attack even if a player has gold armor when attacked, or spiders attack even at high light levels when attacked).

Hostile: Mobs that always attack the player intentionally, hunting it, even if there are ways to make them to not attack the player. (For example, hoglins always want to attack the player, but don't do that when near warped fungus or nether portals).

Boss mobs: Mobs that have a visual health bar, don't spawn randomly and are confronted intentionally.

Compound mobs: Compund mobs that consist of a mob riding another mob.

Unused mobs: Mobs that don't spawn naturally but can be found on the Creative menu or be summoned with the /summon command.

Joke mobs: Mobs that only existed on April Fools versions.

Implemented upcoming mobs: Mobs that aren't on a full release, but are confirmed to be added and exist on the latest snapshot/beta at the time.

Unimplemented upcoming mobs: Mobs that doesn't exist on a full release, nor on a snapshot/beta, but are mentioned and confirmed to be added. Their links redirect to the Mentioned features articles. (It's the current "Mentioned mobs", but without the Moobloom and the Iceologer, and the Warden could go here too)

Concept mobs: Mobs that only existed as concepts, but never were implemented nor fully announced. (I's the current "Unimplemented mobs" renamed to be more precise, also including the Moobloom and Iceologer, as they were concepts too)

Removed mobs: Mobs that no longer exist in current versions of the game.

Education Edition mobs: Mobs that only exist on Education Edition.

Proposal 2:

Passive: Mobs that never attack the player, nor cause damage intentionally (Pufferfish never attacks, but activates a poison aura).

Neutral: Mobs that attack the player if they attack first, or the player doesn't meet the requirements to avoid being attacked by these mobs, leading to the first line (this one) be the requirement to being attacked. (For example, piglins attack even if a player has gold armor when attacked, or spiders attack even at high light levels when attacked).

Hostile: Mobs that always attack the player intentionally, hunting it, even if there are ways to make them to not attack the player. (For example, hoglins always want to attack the player, but don't do that when near warped fungus or nether portals).

Boss mobs: Mobs that have a visual health bar, don't spawn randomly and are confronted intentionally.

Compound mobs: Compund mobs that consist of a mob riding another mob.

Unused mobs: Mobs that don't spawn naturally but can be found on the Creative menu or be summoned with the /summon command.

Joke mobs: Mobs that only existed on April Fools versions.

Planned mobs: Mobs that doesn't exist on a full release, nor on a snapshot/beta, but are mentioned and confirmed to be added. Their links redirect to the Mentioned features articles. (It's the current "Mentioned mobs", but without the Moobloom and the Iceologer, and the Warden could go here too)

Concept mobs: Mobs that only existed as concepts, but never were implemented nor fully announced. (I's the current "Unimplemented mobs" renamed to be more precise, also including the Moobloom and Iceologer, as they were concepts too)

Removed mobs: Mobs that no longer exist in current versions of the game.

Education Edition mobs: Mobs that only exist on Education Edition.

As you see, we don't need Tameable, deffensive or trustable, nor utility. Also I splitted "Upcoming mobs" on the first proposal to be more specific and not cause any confussion. I added a second proposal to decide which is better, and on the second proposal the mobs that are on development versions go to their final category with an upcoming template. Supeika (talk) 03:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

There has been a prior decision against proliferation of categories, which is why I'm against your suggestion. Having too many categories makes the system needlessly unclear.

I'm especially against "compound mobs". They are two (or multiple) mobs, and should not be included in a list of (single) mobs. That's like saying a group of people is a hair color.

Other than that, categories should be exclusive. A mob should not fit multiple categories, so because e.g. "trustable mobs" are also passive, trustable must either not exist or be a subcategory of passive. For this reason, "utility mobs" can't exist, because it has both neutral and passive mobs in it, and cannot be a subcategory of both.

Regarding the pufferfish, I have made my views regarding whether pufferfish attack clear before on this page. Your only reason to object to them being hostile is that it does not feel correct to classify them as such, but I don't see that as a valid reason. Furthermore, you claim to have explained why pufferfish should be defensive, but you have in fact not done so, because you have not explained why they should not be neutral: a neutral mob is by definition one that is neither passive nor hostile; you claim pufferfish are not passive and not hostile; thus, they would be neutral. Blue Banana whotookthisname (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

This Yes exactly, they only attack when you approach them to defend themselves, not to hurt you, therefore they are a neutral mob. Passive mobs cant damage you in any way, and hostile mobs will follow you and attempt to attack you repeatedly. James Haydon (talk) 18:05, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I understand, we need to reclassify the list making it clearer but not full of many categories. Also, the reasoning of why pufferfish are passive is that they never attack the player (this means, chase it to perform an attack). They activate a poison cloud near players, but never perform an actual attack. That's why we discussed that on Talk:Pufferfish#Pufferfish behavior. We didn't get a clear concensus, but I think that they are passive because they don't chase you. Also, on another perspective, in real life an animal may not be agressive but can damage you unintentionally because its skin can have poisonous toxins. That's why they are passive.

Now, about categories, I completely agree with compound mobs. We need to get rid of these on the list, as they are unnecesary. I'll show you another proposal, now updated to fit a shorter categorization.

Proposal 3: