Untitled[]
someone suggested i should merge my secret service power armor with the actual page. I will as long as people don't edit my page without telling me
Well, it should be merged. Its policy. This page already exists as T-65 power armor, so information here should be added to that page. Please remember to check if a page already exists before creating one in the future. --Dankalor😳 16:53, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
Is weight really correct?[]
Weight shown for this armor is 19,6 but if we calculate the statistics manually, we get 18,6. Which one is false? Oreloth (talk)
- Let me get a scratch pad in a bit. Was trying to add quickly because I was dealing with animals earlier. Great Mara (talk) 23:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Level Order[]
Why exactly was level order changed? When people open an armor page they are most often interested in the high level pieces, so high level pieces should come before any low level pieces. Chraczil (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- "Infoboxes are intended to be succinct and convey information at a glance. They should not be excessive, nor should they include unknown statements, full sentences, several factions/flag images, or long lists of characters. This information can be moved to the article itself. For infoboxes, just remember less is more.", according to The Vault Academy. I don't think that global user preference is a valid argument for defining "base stats" information, and it is safer to leave a link to the table than to choose arbitrarily which data to display. Oreloth (talk) 13:16, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- The infoboxes are supposed to be organized lowest to highest. Every game has shown the base version and then the upgrades. Highest to lowest is literally backwards. Great Mara (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we have to stick to what it was like in other games if we can do something better. Highest to lowest prioritizes high level pieces. At low levels people usually wear whatever they have and when they craft new things they craft them with highest levels possible. When they want to find out what armor is the best, they are not gonna look at the lvl 5 pieces because they are either already level higher than 50 (which takes like few days of playing) or they'll wear it for 10 minutes and they'll find something better. So people look at these stats to see what high level armor is the best so they know for example what plans they should look for. I think tables in the game should be ordered highest to lowest so that the info people look for is easier to get. Infobox on the other hand should list max level resistances and in another field max level resistances after applying the best mods. Chraczil (talk) 20:58, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- I understand your point of view perfectly, but I can't agree with a philosophy that requires you to contradict a logic built up over years, even decades. What's more, it's more logical and intuitive to read the values in ascending order, no matter how you look at the problem.Oreloth (talk) 21:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- That logic doesn't work correctly for fallout 76. A lot of the legacy logic you're talking about just doesn't work because this is not the same kind of game as basically every other fallout game on the wiki. When it comes to 76 it's more logical to have the information listed in descending order instead. -Eckserah
Head Dataminer 22:29, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- That logic doesn't work correctly for fallout 76. A lot of the legacy logic you're talking about just doesn't work because this is not the same kind of game as basically every other fallout game on the wiki. When it comes to 76 it's more logical to have the information listed in descending order instead. -Eckserah
- Except it isn't more logical. It's logical to follow game progression, which is lowest to highest. Having equipment contradicting enemy lists is also organizationally inconsistent. And 76 shouldn't be the only game out going backwards to maintain consistent practices on the wiki. Default sort on tables can just a easily be displayed properly in lowest to highest with sortables set to display highest to lowest. Great Mara (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- 76 is the only game going backwards because the way the game works is entirely different than the other games. People look at what the highest level of the gear give for values not the lowest because of waht Chraczil said above. There's a lot of things that aren't like other fallout games because of the MMO nature of 76. People who are playing the game are the ones telling you that it makes more sense to have that information in highest to lowest format for 76. -Eckserah Head Dataminer 00:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- What Chraczil said above favors higher level players over those who may be new or playing casually. Information should be curated for those who know less about the game over those more experienced with the system. And that last statement of yours is highly exclusionary, if not an elitist attitude. Someone else who casually plays the game is telling you right in this statement that it makes no sense. Great Mara (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Except I have many low level and new players in my discord and this is the kind of feedback we've gotten from ALL levels of players. It's not like we're just pulling this out of thin air or trying to favor higher level people. This is actually how a majority of people play the game and use the information that is provided. The way people tend to hang on to older formats just because that's how things have been done is damn stupid. Many of us who play 76, datamine the game, and get/provide the information that this wiki uses for this have had to fight tooth and nail to get things in a format that makes sense to the majority of 76 players. Hell even when starting new characters you usually just take what you can get since until you get to a higher level that's really all you can do. -Eckserah Head Dataminer 01:19, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Except I have many low level and new players in my discord and this is the kind of feedback we've gotten from ALL levels of players. It's not like we're just pulling this out of thin air or trying to favor higher level people. This is actually how a majority of people play the game and use the information that is provided. The way people tend to hang on to older formats just because that's how things have been done is damn stupid. Many of us who play 76, datamine the game, and get/provide the information that this wiki uses for this have had to fight tooth and nail to get things in a format that makes sense to the majority of 76 players. Hell even when starting new characters you usually just take what you can get since until you get to a higher level that's really all you can do. -Eckserah
- What Chraczil said above favors higher level players over those who may be new or playing casually. Information should be curated for those who know less about the game over those more experienced with the system. And that last statement of yours is highly exclusionary, if not an elitist attitude. Someone else who casually plays the game is telling you right in this statement that it makes no sense. Great Mara (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- 76 is the only game going backwards because the way the game works is entirely different than the other games. People look at what the highest level of the gear give for values not the lowest because of waht Chraczil said above. There's a lot of things that aren't like other fallout games because of the MMO nature of 76. People who are playing the game are the ones telling you that it makes more sense to have that information in highest to lowest format for 76. -Eckserah
I think that a compromise solution could be:
1. List the maximums in the infobox (which give an idea of the relative strengths of each armor). 2. Have the table sortable, so that users can decide on the sort order themselves. I'm not sure about the way it's structured right now, with both tables collapsed by default and unsortable, is the optimal way to do it. 【Ｔａｇａｚｉｅｌ】 ☏ 09:44, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Let's assume the "base stats" is supposed to refer to the stats as they are unaffected by any perks and other modifiers, and not necessarily level. So, if the majority of the community prefers to have level sorted in descending order, so let's go. But I think it would be a good idea to define official rules on the wiki about how to display certain information, particularly in the infobox, depending on the quantity. This would avoid this kind of confusion and make all the FO76 equipment pages more uniform. The Vault Academy is a good start, but when it comes to this kind of detail, it lacks some instructions. So what about the maximum infos displayed in the infobox? Oreloth (talk) 09:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, Ecks, that's feedback from your server members, which is not necessarily indicative of all of this wiki's userbase or opinions of players as a whole who may happen in to look something up. That's like taking a sample set from a poll and saying that's the entirety of the facts. It's potentially a scewed data set. "Hanging on to older formats just because the way things have been done" would be maintaining consistency throughout the wiki. Having the weapon/armor levels reversed neither conforms to data organization from prior titles, nor does it conform to creature data presentation within 76 data itself. In order to maintain a quality wiki presentation everything needs to be done uniformly and consistently, that includes Fallout 76 information. On new characters from experienced users, they already have some inkling of where to find high end items, ascending tables gives newer inexperienced users quick access to content that will be more appopriate to their current level. If sorting is implemented, there's nothing stopping people that want the high end items from clicking on the sorting headers. Great Mara (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Since the talk is in progress and I don't see it go in any direction, as a person who made all armor pages I decided to leave it as it was at the beginning- descending order. Changing only one page to ascending order and leaving everything else in descending just makes things less readable and people who open this page should see the same thing that they see on other armor pages. This page is not special in any case to be the only one with ascending order. Don't touch this page until you finally come to an agreement. And once you do then update ALL armor pages and not only this one. I already did my job with making armor pages before and I don't have time to go over all of them again just to fix ordering someone didn't like. Chraczil (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, while the discussion is still ongoing the page should remain as is until a consensus has been reached. I haven't been going through the other pages since this discussion started and you can very well extend the same courtesy.
- On the subject of content organization, I've also been coming across instances of the weapon pages being ascending in the infobox and descending in the mod tables. And with some early game weapons, the issue has never been addressed on whether those infoboxes should be using the most basic drop stats or the stats from the first available produced plan. The pump action shotgun is one example. Great Mara (talk) 22:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why my change to revert the page to it's original state to be in line with other armor pages is wrong, but you keep reverting to Oreloth's changes that were made after the talk started and made the page even less readable - for example look at infobox. Now it looks like 250 is the dr of full set at level 40 while to see stats at level 50 we are supposed to look at the table. We don't know how long this talk will take, so it's better to not have this page in this state for I don't know how long. And I haven't been going through other pages to change the order of things we are talking about here - I was updating them with new paints.
- I'm not sure what you mean by this pump shotgun. Like all weapons in the game it should use the base stats - stats that are applied to the weapon itself and not via omods. Weapon pages were never really revisited by anyone and that's why not every page has the same ordering and they are a mess (a lot of them are missing crafting and modifications sections). I've tried to keep all armor pages the same to avoid this problem and I don't really understand why leaving it as it was before is a big no no. Some people may find one ordering more natural, other people may find another. So like I said before either update all armor pages or revert this one. Maybe weapon pages are mixed with both orderings but I'm responsible for armor pages so I want them to be consistent. Chraczil (talk) 23:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- Just noticed what they did after taking a closer look. Was trying to preserve that paint addition with the page, so copied and pasted the paint addition into an undo revision.
- The pump-action shotgun drops from enemies at lowest level with standard parts and a standard grip but the plan outputs it with a stock. Since it's impossible not to have any mods whatsoever equipped once the player receives it, weapons in FO4 were being formatted with the initial mods in infoboxes and 76 never seemed to have a set standard. The pump-action shotgun is showing a stock modded shotgun as the infobox image with what is the stats for a standard grip shotgun in the infobox. Great Mara (talk) 00:51, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
- Anyone else to weigh in? Comment? Should this be moved to forums? Great Mara (talk) 23:32, 10 August 2023 (UTC)