Talk: Brotherhood of Steel hierarchy

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Untitled[]

The "senior scribes" section reads terribly. It sounds a bit like fan-fiction as well. Cerebral plague 16:53, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

East Coast ranks[]

Are Paladins not higher in rank than knight sergeants and knight captains?

I thought that too, can someone confirm this? CHIEF ^{Talk to me} 21:10, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Paladin (Capital Wasteland chapter)[]

Okay guys, this is kinda bugging me. What's the deal with the rank of Paladin in the Capital Wasteland chapter? Is it the rank above Knight? Or the rank above Knight Captain? Despite the table stating Paladin is higher than Knight Captain, it used to say it was below and only above Knight for a long period of time, plus there's references throughout this whole page saying both. Such as "the best Knights are promoted to Paladins" which clearly states Paladin is above Knight, or does this mean Knights as a whole (Knight, Knight Sergeant, Knight Captain). However it also says in the Star Paladin section "It is ranked below Sentinel, but above Paladin" which implies Paladin is higher that Knight Captain. Also in the game, Paladins are seen as squad commanders to few Knights but also as drill instructors and, in Paladin Tristan's case, field commanders under command of a bunch of soldiers (And he was placed in-command of the Lyons' Pride). Paladin is also seen as a rank of honor, so I don't know how that affects anything. So what's the deal with the rank? Lower or higher than Knight Sergeant and Knight Captain? Chief ^{Talk to meh.} 21:05, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

According to the BoS (Capital Wasteland) page, Paladins are veterans of the Brotherhood, many being members of Elder Lyons' original party that came out to D.C. They are among the best of the Brotherhood and are often high ranking field commanders or used in elite strike teams.

The Star Paladin is said to be ranked below a Sentinel but above Paladin. Sentinel itself is ranked between Elder and Paladin. Traditionally, the best Knights were promoted to Paladins after serving many years.

Everything we've seen of the game, strongly indicate Paladins are of higher rank than any Knights, regardless if they're Captains or Sergeants. There's Paladin Vargas who appears to be second in command of the Lyons' Pride over the other Paladins and Knight Captains. During Broken Steel, Paladin Tristan was the field commander who took charge of the Brotherhood operation while Sentinel Lyons was out.

--Eikichi00 (talk) 19:38, October 1, 2014 (UTC)

Outcast ranks[]

Should the ranks used by the Outcasts be mentioned here too? Protector instead of Paladin, etc. YoshiSuperDragon (talk) 15:36, October 5, 2019 (UTC)

Rhombus as High Elder[]

I keep removing Rhombus from the High Elder section because there is no source for him being one. The first time I removed him someone reverted my changed and added the Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel banner to him, but he is not named High Elder in that game or any other game. He’s also not cited as High Elder on his own page so I don’t know where this is coming from.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

You're right he is never specifically called 'HIgh Elder' however he takes over the leadership from High elder maxson after the latter's death during FOBOS as far as i know. By taking over from a high elder, it stands to reason that he would take on the same mantle. I am not the most knowledgeable about FOBOS so better ask Tag about it.--Branebriar1930 (talk) 13:40, June 25, 2020 (UTC)

I’m trying to engage in good-faith. If a source exists in FOBOS that says that and can be cited on the page, that’d be great. I’m not finding anything that says that he’s High Elder. Instead, Rhombus’s dialogue for FOBOS says “I am Rhombus, leader of the Brotherhood of Steel paladins.”—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

It says he takes over in Fallout endings. The canon ending says The bos under new leadership after the death of Rhombus. this quote implies that prior to his his death, rhombus was running the bos, making him high elder--Branebriar1930 (talk) 14:02, June 25, 2020 (UTC)

Well, not so much implies as states outright and the positive ending slide has an older Rhombus in place of the Steel Plague dude. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 15:56, June 25, 2020 (UTC)

For the record, that's not the canon ending. The canon ending makes no mention of Rhombus - the slide only shows an aged version of him. Assuming that he becomes high elder simply from the slide picture is a reach. He was head paladin in the game, which itself is already a major position and second only to Elder Maxson and the elder council. The non-canon ending narration that you cited goes along with this. To get that ending, only Rhombus must be dead, not High Elder Maxson. Despite this, it still says that the Brotherhood is "under new leadership." Which makes sense, because Rhombus already holds one of the highest positions. Vader0629 (talk) 19:16, June 25, 2020 (UTC)

Uh, nobody's assuming that based on the picture, Vader. It's based on the fact that Rhombus is a pivotal character and whether he lives or dies defines the future of the Brotherhood: Either a sane R&D house that tries to become a political or a techno-religious dictatorship. You can kill Maxson and the whole elder council, but as long as Rhombus remains alive, the Brotherhood won't turn into the Steel Plague.

Given the Brotherhood's strict hierarchy, the only possibility is that he becomes high elder. Rhombus even explains when asked that his duties as head of the paladins are limited to command and training of paladins - not defining the Brotherhood's policy or goals, because that's not his job. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 19:33, June 25, 2020 (UTC)

Hi there, first off I would like to apologize for the edit war. It was not my intention to cause any problems for the wiki. I was a bit frustrated searching around the wiki for some source on this and every single page that lists Rhombus as High Elder seems to be unsourced, or source another page that lists him as High Elder without actually explaining where or if there was an original source. This page especially confused/frustrated me because it appeared that even those who believe him to be a High Elder could not agree on when he was given that title as some are arguing he received it in the original Fallout, and some claim it comes from FOBOS.

I take a more literalist interpretation, and I agree with Vader. The 3 canon High Elders, Roger Maxson, Maxson II, and John Maxson, are explicitly titled High Elders. Rhombus is not. I feel that too great a leap is being made and that it’s veering into speculation. You could just as easily argue that with Rhombus alive and in place as Head Paladin (the highest position he is named as having), the BoS eventually becomes the same R&D house like you describe on their own without his direct leadership. To prevent the Steel Plague ending, we’re given no details as to how or what Rhombus would have done to prevent the BoS from being overtaken by a faction of radical, techno-religious fanatics. It’s entirely possible that as Head Paladin he prevented something more nefarious than simple politicking and political maneuvering on their part. A problem I have with those who believe Rhombus to have been High Elder is that it’s centrally based on John Maxson having died at some absolutely unknown date and Rhombus’s willingness to become High Elder, as well as believing the BoS would even pick a non-Maxson as High Elder, which is something there is no evidence of happening at any other time. That’s the big problem, we don’t have enough details to parse what exactly could or would have happened and I do not believe he should be listed as High Elder in the absence of a more direct and explicit source and an extremely vague ending slide.

If a source exists where Rhombus is named outright as being High Elder of the BoS I will drop this, but to my knowledge there is nothing like that. As Old Man Leon mentioned time me, I would be open an unbiased mediator hearing this out or opening this up to a broader community discussion. 73.217.229.50 17:11, June 26, 2020 (UTC)

We generally try to take the game at face value and the game is unambiguous about it: Rhombus' death leads to Brotherhood being placed under new leadership. Rhombus' survival leads to the Brotherhood becoming a major R&D house. He's even placed front and center in the ending slide to show he's instrumental in this (as if the entire ending hinging on whether he is alive or dead wasn't enough). Couple that with the fact that leadership in the Brotherhood falls entirely to the elders, it's simply taking the game at face value. We have enough details to parse what happened.

Particularly since Maxson explicitly states that "{247}{Gen_62}{The Knights make the weapons. And when he's good enough, a Knight can advance to become a Paladin and then an Elder and so forth. Right now Rhombus is the head of the Knights.}"; Maxson himself was Head Paladin before becoming High Elder.

As for the claim of "speculation": Do note that you're not actually presenting evidence from the game to back your claim up, instead offering speculation: "You could just as easily argue" or "It's entirely possible". No actual sources there. Especially since "the BoS would [not] even pick a non-Maxson as High Elder" is not a statement of fact, but a claim invented from whole cloth. There's not a single source in the games themselves claiming that there is some sort of requirement or tradition of Maxsons holding that position (in fact, there's a four year gap between Maxson II croaking and John being offered the position.

Plus, if you want to get technical, there's no source as to Roger Maxson ever holding the rank of High Elder. Or Maxson II for that matter.

In summary: Please, present actual evidence. "Could have" does not constitute evidence, as No-bark Noonan could be right though we have no evidence to prove him right. :) _Tagaziel ^(call!) 10:11, June 27, 2020 (UTC)

Addendum: Brenden, while ultimately not placed in the game, further explains this: "{122}{}{I've come to the conclusion that the Brotherhood functions mostly like a pseudo-religious organization. We have the strong military hierarchy, combined with codes of honor passed down from our ancestors. Combine this with our technical skills and I think that there are two paths of development for the Brotherhood: a techno-religious dictatorship or a benevolent research society.}"

"{123}{}{What could influence the development of the Brotherhood?}"

"{124}{}{Ultimately we have a command heirarchy, with the Elders at the top. The most influential positions, then, are the Elders and the High Elder. A charismatic High Elder could direct the Brotherhood almost completely. We need to be careful to make sure that we have a leader who is both strong and visionary. Thankfully, I think that General Maxson fits that description.}"

So yeah. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 10:42, June 27, 2020 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree. You’re asking me to prove a negative when the burden of proof lies with you to prove that Rhombus was High Elder. I’m not the one making the claim that Rhombus was High Elder, I’m arguing that there is insufficient evidence to make such a claim. It is up to you to support the claim with enough evidence. The lack of explicit evidence naming Rhombus as High Elder by the Council is my evidence.

To your other point, we do know that Roger Maxson and Maxson II were High Elders. They were named as such in the Maxson Archive Terminal at the Citadel in Fallout 3. Roger Maxson- “At Lost Hills, Roger Maxson formed the Brotherhood of Steel. As the organization's first High Elder, he formed the Orders of Paladins, Knights and Scribes.” And Maxson II- “Took over command of the Brotherhood of Steel as High Elder in 2135, when his father, Roger Maxson, died of cancer.” I believe that these sources should be added to this page as well. As I said in my last post, the only confirmed High Elders that we have had explicitly named within canon sources are Maxsons. And as to the 4 year gap between Maxson II and John Maxson that you pointed out, I will again state that we do not know if the High Elder position is one that is consistently and constantly occupied. To the best of our knowledge, the High Elder position had been left unoccupied during that 4 year gap until John Maxson took the position. Again, post Fallout , we have never learned of another High Elder post-John Maxson.73.217.229.50 16:36, June 27, 2020 (UTC)

Essentially, you don't have any actual evidence to provide, just speculation. I will concede that the developer who used the wiki as reference copied our content to Fallout 3, but prior to that there was no actual evidence of either Roger or his son being named High Elder. Fallout 76 further retcons that by establishing that Maxson was titled Elder. Not High Elder (and similarly, Taggerdy was not an Elder, as is customary in the 23rd century, but a Paladin).

At any rate, I feel that there's enough evidence to connect these facts. Brenden explicitly shows what the developers thinking was and we have direct evidence in the form of endings and slides. As such, this shifts the burden of proof to you, since you haven't provided a single citation or source to back your claim up. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 17:50, June 28, 2020 (UTC)

Again, I disagree and I don’t believe you’re understanding my point or where I’m coming from. I am making the claim that Rhombus has not been named High Elder in the established, canon lore. That is both the central claim to my argument and my evidence. I believe that there is no definitive, explicit proof that he did in fact hold that rank. And again, you are asking me to prove a negative when the burden of proof lies with you. I have clearly said what sort of evidence I believe necessary to pass a level of falsifiability, and you have not met that level of criteria. It is on you, the one claiming that that he in in fact fold the rank, to support that with evidence and proof that he did 100% hold the rank. My argument is that that your point hinges too much on speculation and that any number of other situations could reasonably occur and lead to similar outcomes. Obviously I am not the only who feels so because another user tried to edit that section before me, and Vader has also expressed doubt that Rhombus held the rank. I do not feel my point is completely unreasonable to question this, and in the absence of definitive proof (let alone a single citation explaining his being there on this page), members of the community are questioning whether is claim is actually factual. Thank you. 73.217.229.50 20:50, June 28, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you're making a claim and you're not providing any evidence, while ignoring every single bit of evidence relating to the power structure of the Brotherhood, ending conditions, and ending slides, including one where Rhombus' death is cited as the sole reason for new leadership and a change in direction.

This doesn't hinge on any sort of speculation. What does hinge on speculation is claiming that it can't happen because "any number of situations could reasonably occur" (you neither explain what kind of situation could occur nor provide evidence to back up that this is the case).

So unless you provide actual, actionable evidence that isn't pure speculation, I see no ground to ignore what the games tell us. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 12:24, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

May I, at the very least, ask why the FOBOS symbol was added to Rhombus’s name in the High Elder section? Everything you’ve said comes from the original Fallout. Per Rhombus’s dialogue in FOBOS he identifies himself as the Head of the Paladins, not as High Elder. All I really wanted was proper citations and attributions.

I realize that you do not agree with me, nor I with you, but I will have to concede the point because I see no reason in continuing. This is clearly going to go back and forth and neither of us seem likely to change each others mind, and you wield more authority around here than me. You don’t need to worry about me editing this page again, I will not. I had asked if a mediator could be brought in, or if this could be posed to the broader Fallout wiki community, but you ignored that. I won’t pretend to know all the ins and outs of how the wiki works (I apologized earlier for my engaging in an edit war on this page), but if I’ve got to be honest I don’t think this is the community for me. I respect the work you’ve done for this and other wikis Tagaziel, but personally, you came off as condescending and I’ve really gotten the impression now that you have not been fully reading my posts. You have now spooked off a community member, make of that what you will. I’m active within other Fallout circles and hope we can meet again and hit it off if we encounter each other again. 73.217.229.50 18:59, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

Within the Fallout universe, proper citations and attributions are far and wide, found on both here on Nukapedia, among the former sister, now merging, wiki that is The Vault. That being said, to make a valid conclusion that comes from a grand total of two endings is not exactly speculation. However, as Tagaziel has said, to speculate on the variety of possibilities that could arise from those two endings would be speculation unto itself. There are two options: BoS becomes military Nazi dictatorship, or a peaceful force for good, lead by Rhombus. As such, to make the conclusion that, as of Brotherhood of Steel, Rhombus is canonically shown as a High Elder, a position that is replicant of Paladin Hardin's unquestioning orders and status in comparison to Elder McNamara, is only logical, and relies on no speculation whatsoever. That being said, while you may not feel as if you would want to edit the wiki or communicate here again, I would like to request that, if you are in possession of a Discord account or some other media (Reddit or some other social media) account, that you share it on your IP page or here so that further communication may be had in a peaceful and fully moderated matter. JCB2077 (talk) 19:58, June 29, 2020 (UTC)

Banned user edits.[]

Recent rollback was due to invalid edits from a banned user. Valid users are free to restore any of the content they can validate.

intrepid3597/28/24 [7:09pm]