[Concept] - It's Good to be Bad

[Shadowferal]

Okay. Suit yourself. For me it's, sometimes, character breaking when playing something like a DK, a Warlock, a Shadow Priest, a Rogue, a Forsaken, a Goblin or and Orc.

Independent factions are so...missed.
My Scourge faction is indeed evil. However I've made allowances for those that don't want to be the bad...thing. (Does gender matter to the dead?) Of course they'd have to keep mum about that since they are playing Scourge and insta-death for any reveal differently to fellow Scourge. And the opposing "good" guys are also doing their best to reduce you to ash. (The various quests will reveal the fine line a "good" aligned Scourge has to walk, and an Underground "Railroad" for these heroes..since they won't be accepted no matter what)

[username993720]

None of those win if the evil wins. They all die just like the rest.
The orcs culture dies, the goblins profit plummets.

A shadow priest uses the void for their own gain, it doesn't want to end up consumed by the void.
The death knight doesn't want to turn the whole world into the mindless pawns of lich king he used to be himself
The warlock doesn't want the planet to be taken over by the demons he abuses for power, for they would abuse him.
A rogue is jobless if the world is dead etc etc etc.

Obviously, there would need to be an opposition. A world destroyed leaves them with nothing. But, there can be advancements.

From a RPer's perspective, some of these have been incorporated into player events on various servers. I remember a community made event where some people would portray the Scarlet Crusade and the alliance players would make a temporary truce to save captives captured by horde players. When I first heard of this, I didn't think anything of it. But when I actually saw it...these roleplayers are on a whole nother level.

Sounds cool.
Would have been even better if it was actually a system.

Absolutely none of those are inherently evil, though. Some of them have absolutely been portrayed as evil, and others have been portrayed as absolutely good.

You don't wish to play the part?

And you think after saving the world 10 times, we're suddenly going to go evil for some inexplicable reason and condemn it? As I said above, such a villain-turn doesn't fit in either with WoW's overarching themes or its gameplay fundamentals. If such had been provisioned for in WoW's infancy, perhaps; but it wasn't and now wouldn't make much sense. Still a good idea for one of those limited experiences where continuity doesn't matter, though.

It's not for everyone, just those who are sick of being the good guys. They will defect to villainous organizations. I think it will create an interesting dynamic - less homogenized (everyone's good).

Independent factions are so...missed.
My Scourge faction is indeed evil. However I've made allowances for those that don't want to be the bad...thing. (Does gender matter to the dead?) Of course they'd have to keep mum about that since they are playing Scourge and insta-death for any reveal differently to fellow Scourge. And the opposing "good" guys are also doing their best to reduce you to ash. (The various quests will reveal the fine line a "good" aligned Scourge has to walk, and an Underground "Railroad" for these heroes..since they won't be accepted no matter what)

You mean traitors within those factions?

[Aucald]

It's not for everyone, just those who are sick of being the good guys. They will defect to villainous organizations. I think it will create an interesting dynamic - less homogenized (everyone's good).

Which, like the Scourge Invasion event that accompanied WotLK, isn't something the game can support long-term - it would make wide swaths of the game inaccessible for players who choose that, which would ultimately end up disenfranchising them.

[Shadowferal]

You mean traitors within those factions?

Yep. Several "racial specs" that have questlines that basically get the player out of Dodge before the influence of the King and Queen overwhelm him/her. A small assist from a certain valkyr that knows all too well how it feels to be a slave. This particular pc will be the first exposed to the Underground of the "minor" races trying to simply survive.
Scourge (evil) even has a hidden faction in Stormwind that preaches Eternal Life. (Re: cult "Twilight's Edge")

.../ramble

[Cenathor]

This sounds great.

[onesBronson]

Sounds cool.
Would have been even better if it was actually a system.

Some things you just have to let the players handle on their own.

[rowaasr13]

1st problem: didn't attempt to revive AvH dead horse teach you anything? Pitting players against each other in an MMO is stupid, because neither side will get satisfactory "win". You can't say "evil prevailed, good is in ruins and every good PC is deleted". Neither good side can win. So this entire tug-of-war gets stale after some time. All struggle and no catharsis.

2nd problem: even in expansions that tried to focus heavily on faction-vs-faction theme, most of content was something available to both factions - some common foe in dungeon and raids, attempts to make different content by just replacing name/model/spell names of a boss are rare already and attempts to do something more complex are even more rare. Even if we're fighting against 3rd party, what point for "evil" faction is to go and say, stop Nokhud Offensive? Why primalist would screw their boss-buddies in Vault of Incarnates? Many dungeons and - more importantly - raids suddenly make no sense. How do you fill this lack of content?

Well, you can make new raids and dungeons for other factions and have players from other factions "transform" a la Dazar'Alor to experience what other factions did, but let's be real - Blizzard won't make even one raid/dungeon per faction per expansion and with that all those "evil factions" will quickly start to feel irrelevant.

Now speaking about this, that's actually an interesting idea - it'd be fun if Blizzard had some kind of such dungeon/raid somewhere in each expansion to show us how <insert current enemy> forces reached some important objective where players would temporarily play <insert current enemy>'s enforcers. But still it simply won't scale to many factions that will need to persist and be relevant in each expansion.

[Triceron]

1st problem: didn't attempt to revive AvH dead horse teach you anything? Pitting players against each other in an MMO is stupid, because neither side will get satisfactory "win". You can't say "evil prevailed, good is in ruins and every good PC is deleted". Neither good side can win. So this entire tug-of-war gets stale after some time. All struggle and no catharsis.

2nd problem: even in expansions that tried to focus heavily on faction-vs-faction theme, most of content was something available to both factions - some common foe in dungeon and raids, attempts to make different content by just replacing name/model/spell names of a boss are rare already and attempts to do something more complex are even more rare. Even if we're fighting against 3rd party, what point for "evil" faction is to go and say, stop Nokhud Offensive? Why primalist would screw their boss-buddies in Vault of Incarnates? Many dungeons and - more importantly - raids suddenly make no sense. How do you fill this lack of content?

Well, you can make new raids and dungeons for other factions and have players from other factions "transform" a la Dazar'Alor to experience what other factions did, but let's be real - Blizzard won't make even one raid/dungeon per faction per expansion and with that all those "evil factions" will quickly start to feel irrelevant.

Now speaking about this, that's actually an interesting idea - it'd be fun if Blizzard had some kind of such dungeon/raid somewhere in each expansion to show us how <insert current enemy> forces reached some important objective where players would temporarily play <insert current enemy>'s enforcers. But still it simply won't scale to many factions that will need to persist and be relevant in each expansion.

IMO it would have to be detached from AvH.

Covenants could have been an interesting way to pit factions against each other, but for whatever reason they're all fairly neutral to one another.

Aldor Scryer was the closest thing I can see otherwise, but there was not much integrated into systems of quests. Just non-friendly zones within a neutral hub.

[username993720]

Which, like the Scourge Invasion event that accompanied WotLK, isn't something the game can support long-term - it would make wide swaths of the game inaccessible for players who choose that, which would ultimately end up disenfranchising them.

It would take more work, sure, like creating different experiences for Horde and Alliance. But, i think it would be worth it in the long term.

Yep. Several "racial specs" that have questlines that basically get the player out of Dodge before the influence of the King and Queen overwhelm him/her. A small assist from a certain valkyr that knows all too well how it feels to be a slave. This particular pc will be the first exposed to the Underground of the "minor" races trying to simply survive.
Scourge (evil) even has a hidden faction in Stormwind that preaches Eternal Life. (Re: cult "Twilight's Edge")

.../ramble

I guess one could decide if they want to rejoin the good side.

This sounds great.

Thank you.

Some things you just have to let the players handle on their own.

Well, yes.
But, not everyone is an RPer.

1st problem: didn't attempt to revive AvH dead horse teach you anything? Pitting players against each other in an MMO is stupid, because neither side will get satisfactory "win". You can't say "evil prevailed, good is in ruins and every good PC is deleted". Neither good side can win. So this entire tug-of-war gets stale after some time. All struggle and no catharsis.

You're not compelled to join one side or the other. It's a choice. And, it can have consequences, like a ruined place that needs to be reconquered and built and dead characters that need to be brought back to life. I have a feeling they will be trying this "losing" thing in Midnight, where we will be overwhelmed by the Void.

2nd problem: even in expansions that tried to focus heavily on faction-vs-faction theme, most of content was something available to both factions - some common foe in dungeon and raids, attempts to make different content by just replacing name/model/spell names of a boss are rare already and attempts to do something more complex are even more rare. Even if we're fighting against 3rd party, what point for "evil" faction is to go and say, stop Nokhud Offensive? Why primalist would screw their boss-buddies in Vault of Incarnates? Many dungeons and - more importantly - raids suddenly make no sense. How do you fill this lack of content?

It's an endgame content. Not leveling.

Well, you can make new raids and dungeons for other factions and have players from other factions "transform" a la Dazar'Alor to experience what other factions did, but let's be real - Blizzard won't make even one raid/dungeon per faction per expansion and with that all those "evil factions" will quickly start to feel irrelevant.

They created a unique campaign for each of the classes in Legion.

Now speaking about this, that's actually an interesting idea - it'd be fun if Blizzard had some kind of such dungeon/raid somewhere in each expansion to show us how <insert current enemy> forces reached some important objective where players would temporarily play <insert current enemy>'s enforcers. But still it simply won't scale to many factions that will need to persist and be relevant in each expansion.

I don't think they'd integrate it into each expansion's storyline. It should be something outside the main narrative, in your spare time.

[rohansharma6014]

I like your graphics

[rowaasr13]

IMO it would have to be detached from AvH.

And it still would remain "one undefeatable faction vs. another undefeatable faction with eternal boring status quo".

It would take more work, sure, like creating different experiences for Horde and Alliance. But, i think it would be worth it in the long term.

Nope. It's just creating content that MOST of player base would not experience. Not just 1/2 as with AvH would see it, but 1/whatever number of factions you imagine would experience it.

It's an endgame content. Not leveling.

They created a unique campaign for each of the classes in Legion.

Exactly. And those "unique campaigns" were all leveling content, because creating exclusive end-game content like dungeons or raids would be very counter-productive.

I don't think they'd integrate it into each expansion's storyline. It should be something outside the main narrative, in your spare time.

Err... I don't get this idea. So, you're working on saving the world by the day, but spin your evil Twilight Hammer schemes in your spare time? And once again, any faction without constant influx of content will quickly become irrelevant. You already have such factions in your rep page.

[username993720]

Nope. It's just creating content that MOST of player base would not experience. Not just 1/2 as with AvH would see it, but 1/whatever number of factions you imagine would experience it.

Same as with class specific quests during Legion. The expansion wasn't criticized for that.

Exactly. And those "unique campaigns" were all leveling content, because creating exclusive end-game content like dungeons or raids would be very counter-productive.

What's the difference? Both experiences are class specific.
I never mentioned any raids or dungeons.

Err... I don't get this idea. So, you're working on saving the world by the day, but spin your evil Twilight Hammer schemes in your spare time? And once again, any faction without constant influx of content will quickly become irrelevant. You already have such factions in your rep page.

You don't have to do the main storyline if you don't want to.
Anyway, i didn't say they wouldn't create more content. I said it doesn't, necessarily, need to be intertwined with the expansions' themes and story.

[Triceron]

And it still would remain "one undefeatable faction vs. another undefeatable faction with eternal boring status quo".

Players could join and help factions that are designed to rise and fall, giving a more dynamic sense to the game world and story. It still would be an illusion, but it can be presented in a way that still matters to the current story, like the Sylvanas Loyalist storyline (aside from messing up its conclusion). Loyalists are pretty much all gone, permanently.

If handled a different way they could be designed as a faction that could win or lose in the story, with players being able to influence whether they succeed or not overall. Kinda like Warhammer 40k campaigns, where the collective results of tournaments drives the conclusion of the campaign lore.

[onesBronson]

Well, yes.
But, not everyone is an RPer.

This isn't just for RPers, what your considering is for the player base to experience at their leisure. Something that Blizzard has to implement if it's worth value and time investment. And knowing Blizzard's track record, it would only be good enough as a temporary event like Pandaria Remix and Plunderstorm, two things we already got.

Perhaps they will make more? Perhaps one of these will be a permanent addition to the game? Who can say? But it's up to the player if they find value in it.

[Shadowferal]

I think I'd explore turning the player's pc onto its own small server.

[username993720]

This isn't just for RPers, what your considering is for the player base to experience at their leisure. Something that Blizzard has to implement if it's worth value and time investment. And knowing Blizzard's track record, it would only be good enough as a temporary event like Pandaria Remix and Plunderstorm, two things we already got.

Perhaps they will make more? Perhaps one of these will be a permanent addition to the game? Who can say? But it's up to the player if they find value in it.

They can try and test it first, before they implement it.
But, it shouldn't just be overlooked.