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I was taking a look at my progress towards a Bronze Badge in the tag known as . I have a score of 32 on 44 answers against that tag. I have been answering questions in that tag for over a year now. At the present rate, it will take me two to three years to earn just a Bronze Badge.

Now, the tag is not very popular, not for any slight of the topic, but because it is a niche topic based on a niche technology. The tag is obviously much more popular. Someone could answer against that tag and with one good answer (assuming just modest answers to other questions so as to meet the minimum milestone), achieve a Bronze Badge in a day or two.

It seems to me that the basis of awarding tag badges (and most likely, many others) should be normalized to account for popularity (or lack thereof). I could formulate a fantastic answer in the tag, but enjoy only five or six upvotes because of a lack of popularity.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a tag may be stratified in a way that doesn't bring clarity to the topic. For example, in the series, we have , , and . While the latter makes sense due to the underlying technological departure of Aurelia from its roots, the former two aren't strictly necessary for a competent exchange between parties (though answers do tend to weave in and out of version-specific advice). Quite a few folks in the Durandal circles aren't entirely clear what version they're using, or that there is an historically significant progression of versions (they could be arriving relatively late to the technology).

Further, let's imagine that we follow this pattern ad infinitum: Should there not be a tag (and so on...)? And what does that really bring to the table? We're relying on end users to take the time to specify the version they're using (they won't always), and we're creating larger hurdles for those of us looking to earn badges in the topics' tags.

Thoughts on normalization to avoid a disproportionate influence of popular topics on the merit system of [at least] tag badges?

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    Tag badges do require a minimum number of answers in order to attain. Bronze requires 20 answers, silver 80, gold 200. If you only have one answer in a given tag, no matter its score, you will not be able to obtain any of the tag badges. But I agree, there are a number of issues with the current system.
    – BoltClock
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 5:45
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    You might want to reflect a bit on your primary motivation to spend all these hours of your free time on SO. If a tiny scrap of HTML that doesn't cost anything is all you really care about then you are doing it wrong. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 7:30
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    Life isn't fair
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 7:33
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    Can we have a conversation about badges which doesn't turn into an endless stream of "why do you care about badges"? They exist for a reason, so clearly people are meant to care about them. Beyond which, gold badges in a tag bestow powers as well and aren't just symbolic. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 7:43
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    If question has [durandal-2.0] tag and doesn't have [durandal] then you can edit it and add [durandal] tag. This way you will gain additional points in this tag.
    – rtruszk
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 7:51
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    @Chris Hayes: I don't know what's worse: this, or conversations about downvotes being equated to whining about rep. If anything, the people who are whining the most about cosmetic knick knacks and virtual points are the ones who make every single discussion about badges or votes about them.
    – BoltClock
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 7:52
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    I recognize that. On SF I have more than twice the score on the centos tag than I do on the ubuntu tag. Despite me using Ubuntu on a daily basis and never having touched a Centos tag. The scoring in that case is clearly saying something about the relative popularity between Centos and Ubuntu than it does say about my knowledge of the two.
    – kasperd
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 10:33
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    How will your normalization idea work for new tags that will be popular? For example, a new version of the .NET framework comes out. When the tag is created it's obviously not popular. Do the users that answer the first few questions get an advantage toward the badges because it's new? Or, does the system need to recalculate (and take away) badges as they become more popular?
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 14:05
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    Aren't tag badges meant to show that you have some level of expertise in answering questions about a certain topic? If you make it too easy to obtain those tag badges in the name of "making it fair" then you're going to end up with people that have obtained a badge that haven't yet truly demonstrated their expertise.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 14:14
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    Were it not possible to clock up the points by answering 'low hanging fruit' questions, then that might be true.
    – Sobrique
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 14:20
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    @BoltClock It's the rep points and badges that make this site work in the first place. Take them away and you'll lose all your answerers in a week. Didn't a wise person once say something about how people will do anything for fake Internet points? Like it or not, discussions about how score is kept are inevitable, because like it or not, the worthless little scraps of HTML matter. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 17:06
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    @mason Yes, and that's the point. I think that, right now, they reflect popularity to a greater degree than they do expertise. Should someone be judged less of an expert because the topic itself is not very popular?
    – user3174746
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 17:51
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    Makes me wonder how it would look if for a tag badge, you'd need to be in the top x% (by whatever metric) of people "involved" in that tag (having gained 10 upvotes there or something?). That would mean a less busy tag has easier badges in absolute terms, but you still need to be "better than many of your peers". A very rare tag might not have gold badges at all (not enough questions and peers to average out the noise). OTOH, that means you could lose a tag badge again. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 21:13
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    I have just requested the deletion and termination of all of my SO accounts. I flagged the comment made by @remyabel up top as "Not constructive" as it was flat out an insult. The flag was declined, and my question about that on Meta was voted down. I was told that the bar is "much higher for Not constructive" on Meta as discussion is encouraged. Apparently, insults are "discussion." It has been wonderful this past year--good luck to all of you in your endeavors. Since, apparently, I was more interested in points and badges than helping people, I'm sure I won't be missed.
    – user3174746
    Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 22:09
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    Come over to the Forth tag (approximately 100 questions in 6 years) - we are more upvote-friendly! Commented Mar 1, 2015 at 11:15

4 Answers 4

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I don't think this is a wholly bad idea, as long as the relationship is sub-linear.

If a tag has 1/1000 the traffic of Java, perhaps needing only 1/10 or 1/20 the score is reasonable. (Perhaps, low traffic tags need 1/10 the score that is currently needed, and high traffic tags are changed to require twice what they now need, with medium traffic tags being somewhere between 50-100% of the existing requirement).

What can't ever work is doing it in linear proportion to tag popularity. That would make it far too easy to make up a new tag and immediately gain a badge in it.

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    I agree. I never really conceived of a linear relationship between popularity and effort. It's probably more logarithmic.
    – user3174746
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 17:43
  • The log function is problematic, but I agree that "linear score" function generates community inconsistences... In recent years the square root function (SQRT) was used for "voting normalization" (ex.). So, a suggestion is to use SQRT as score for decision making, bounty, badges, etc. Commented Jan 30, 2016 at 15:14
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I have pondered this - it's not just Stack Overflow though. Some of the quieter Stack Exchange sites can take a long time to get there too.

The idea is that with a good track record of contribution, privileges are unlocked. In some cases, that's reputation points based (for example, delete and vote to close). The gold/silver/bronze tag badges are similar, but they are geared to per-tag score instead. (Which is almost the same, given each upvote is worth 10).

So the idea is: You get a gold badge when you've a good track record of solid answers and expertise in a topic. You get more moderator tools as your contribution to the site as a whole progresses.

But I've also wondered if there's scope for reward scaling. I mean, part of the point of gamification is to steer behaviours. But as it stands, answering an easy question, quickly, in a popular tag will get you more recognition than a well-thought-out answer on an old question in a quiet tag.

I notice the trend - the answers that I personally feel are my best contributions... don't do so well. It's been mentioned a few times that 'fastest gun in the west' is the way to 'win' Stack Overflow.

So the suggestion I'd offer is to perhaps reward a reputation points bonus that's triggered based on:

  • Question score vs. median score. (Question must beat 'median' question score).
  • Answers that beat 'median' score for questions that this applies to, get a bonus.

I'm not sure how this'd work on multi-tagged questions though (the obvious would be 'take worst case', and accept that means if you tag 'java' along with 'veryobscurething' it'll suffer a bit, but more eyes will see it, so it probably balances out). Nor do I know if there's a solution in terms of score-based badges. I assume they're score based rather than reputation points based for a reason.

Or perhaps it's as simple as an adjustment based on average-time-to-gold, given earning rates of the active users in the tag.

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  • Yes, over the next few days, I'm going to try to formulate a model of the statistical inputs. You bring up some excellent points.
    – user3174746
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 17:45
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I think any normalization would have to be done very carefully with a solid statistical basis.

More popular tags have greater competition. In theory multiple great answers might all get upvotes, but in practice many people answer with similar answers but only a couple get votes, pushed to the top, and the rest largely ignored.

A tag with more questions doesn't necessarily enjoy the same proportion of more votes per question. A user is still only going to visit and vote on a certain number of questions per day on average. If there are more users in a tag, there probably are more questions and answers among which to divide their time spent voting. Unless it's a question that comes up in google alot for common issues, then it's not likely to get a disproportional amount of attention. I've seen plenty of great answers in popular tags that don't have more than a couple upvotes, the asker's upvote, and maybe one or two other people who were involved in the question at the time it was answered.

Lastly, older popular tags tend to have more questions that deal with troubleshooting some strange issue. It's harder to find questions that are asking about a feature that is core to the technology, that someone who is simply knowledgeable of the field can quickly answer. Instead, you get questions where answerers must spend more time intimately familiarizing themselves with the asker's specific scenario.

If anything, IMO it's easier to do well in a younger less popular tag. Assuming you are well versed in the technology, you'll have an opportunity to get in there and answer those core questions that future beginners will revisit many times and feed you upvotes. Granted it will take awhile.

I don't dismiss your ideas in whole though. I just want to emphasize that there's a great deal of factors in play. It's a bit like economic theories. We can model it all day based on our assumptions, but in practice we are probably way off.

It shouldn't be too easy to get a Gold badge in a currently unpopular tag. It's a bit unfair to late comers who might, in the long run, have much more to offer. It could also be gamed to give people more power than they perhaps should have.

I would not only look at current statistics, but take a retrospective look at what now popular tags looked like when they were younger. Consider if the new rules were in place at that time, take individuals who would have gotten a gold badge as-per the new rules at that time. How many of them would have gotten the gold badge then, but do not have the badge today, because they have never met today's standards. Would they have deserved that badge? Did their early contributions warrant them getting the badge then, even though their current contributions don't meet today's standards? Just doing that analysis on a case by case basis might reveal some insights that might lead one to adjust the criteria further, abandon wholesale, or raise more questions that need further study.

Additionally, it could be like chasing an ever moving goal. Depending on the formula you use, you might have to contribute at an ever increasing rate which is greater than the growth of the tag's popularity.

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  • Brilliant response, and you've given me more food for thought. Just so you know, the reason I posted the question as a "Your thoughts?" question is precisely because I'm willing to admit out of hand that statistical normalization must be approached carefully and on the basis of solid statistical methods. I wonder what the mathematicians would have to say over on that Exchange?
    – user3174746
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 17:48
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    Thing is - getting a gold badge doesn't actually say anything at all about a user's competence. It's a measure of activity in a subject area. My most upvoted answers seem to be for clearly answering a basic questions. And the ones I think are a decent measure of my technical expertise don't do nearly so well. Something I put down to verifiability of answers. But having 'early golds' for being active in a tag... I don't think does much harm, simply because 'gold' has never meant more than 'active in a tag, and not a complete blithering idiot'.
    – Sobrique
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 10:39
  • @Sobrique Gold gives you special moderation abilities. If you can get them much more easily when a tag is young then that might lead to abuse or just an unfair bias in how it is awarded. I'm not really intending to argue the meaning of of the badge in terms of what it measures.
    – AaronLS
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 15:57
  • No, nor I particularly - I was just trying to suggest that there's really nothing stopping harm or bias now, because the 'bar' is activity not quality. If a new-ish tag ends up with a few people 'getting gold' early, and access to the mod powers then I don't really see any great harm.
    – Sobrique
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 16:23
  • @Sobrique Agreed that one could consider the current system to have some bias. We could be potentially introducing additional bias. There is a potential that people could game this mechanic if it is not implemented carefully. It might end up being alot more than just a "few people" if it is not implemented carefully.
    – AaronLS
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 19:47
  • The competition w.r.t. popular tags is not a zero-sum game; it's almost the contrary - a super-popular question will probably have several very-popular answers, with lots of people upvoting several answers.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Apr 22, 2015 at 11:35
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I certainly like the idea of having shared knowledge be rewarded for its own sake, without regard to how popular the subject is. Academics was fun! From this perspective, a Ph.D, no matter how arcane the mathematical field, should be worth a great reputation.

Another view is more market oriented: you can work hard and be brilliant at a failed startup, and you get no street cred ("you worked for who?) or reward (options value = $0.00). From this perspective, how much you can help others (how applicable your answer is to the current market) matters - and street cred comes from knowing a lot about a topic people care about.

So I guess the question is - is this a market oriented site, where reputation is a measure of your worth to others, or is it an academic site, where reputation should be based on a less measured representation of value.

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    Or can we have both? A gold tag badge in an obscure tag has some similarity to a PhD, in that it indicates deep expertise in a very small slice of almost nothing. We aren't talking about increasing reputation awarded for upvotes in low-traffic tags, so that continues to be a measure of utility to other users.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 2:34
  • An academic scoring system simply measures competence, not popularity. And, unfortunately, SO's scoring system does not necessarily represent that a member knows a lot about a topic people care about. One can know very little about a topic and, yet, garner a huge reputation. You know, not everything is meant to be scored. I'm thinking that SO should dispense with the scoring and badging system altogether. We didn't have it on CompuServe; it doesn't exist on GitHub; it doesn't exist on blogs, either. And, yet, those venues are enormously helpful, many times even more so than SO.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 2:38
  • You may have noticed they just gathered a $40M VC round of funding. Hmm... what could they sell? Headhunter access to qualified techies in fields the company cares about? joelonsoftware.com/items/2015/01/20.html Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 2:39
  • @user3546411 Their souls.
    – user3174746
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 2:42

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