When can まで mean "only"?

Question

Officer is describing the events following a recent kidnapping by a crime syndicate of a debt collector:

そして止めてあった車に
― 集金人を押し込むと
― 動く奴がいなくなるまでもう一度車上射撃を食らわせた
その車の車種およびナンバーは ？
黒いセダン日本車ということまで
その後の足取りは捜索中だ
Then, after they pushed the collector onto a car... ...that had been parked close by...
...they returned and fired rounds until no remaining body moved.
What's the make of the car? It's license number?
A black sedan.
All we know is that it's a Japanese make. We're still searching for its whereabouts.

ということまで seems here to mean something like "[we know] up until the fact that it's a black Japanese made sedan", coming out to mean something like "only".

What I wonder is how practically one can distinguish between まで meaning "even" vs. "only", considering that it seems both meanings are deriving from the main meaning of "until". They seem almost opposite in meaning as well.

In fact, I wonder what context here exactly makes it such that one shouldn't take this as meaning "[we know] even the fact that it's a black Japanese made sedan"?

Answer 1

Xまで分かっている is indeed somewhat ambiguous; そこまで分かっている can be interpreted either neutrally ("We know this much (so far)") or emphatically ("We (even) know this much"), depending purely on the context.

The neutral reading is likely when it's used with a contrastive-wa functioning like "at least":

• そこまでは分かっている。
  We know this much, at least.

The emphatic reading is likely when used with words like そんな, のに, なんと, etc.:

• そんなことまで分かっているのに…
  Even though we know such a thing, ...

In your specific example, the context is the only key. He provided vague information after being asked about the car number, so it shouldn't be translated using "even". If the conversation were something like the following, this まで might be taken as "even":

その車の特徴は？
黒い〇〇、ナンバーは〇〇-〇〇、マフラーを改造しており、左のドアに傷があるということまで。

Answer 2

Individual words in one language don't really "mean" the thing that we translate them as in another language. Especially not when it comes to words used for structural purposes (conjunctions and prepositions in English; particles in Japanese).

まで is used to say where the boundary is of some previously mentioned thing. It's the same sort of idea as how particle で tells us the boundary within which something happens. Of course, pointing out a boundary could be seen as either limiting or expanding. It depends on your perspective.

Suppose we could make a list of all the things that it's possible to know about the car and put them in order, from the absolute basics to the finest, most interesting details. In general, we would imagine learning those things in order.

まで here tells us the stopping point, how far the speaker's knowledge extends. The police know that it's a Japanese black sedan, and don't know anything "beyond" that point.

The English translation here says "only" because, in context, this claim is being contrasted with the previous question. Clearly, the license plate number, and the exact make of the car, would be more detailed information. The officer implicitly denies having that information.

If we reversed the items - if in fact the police had all this information, but the interviewer only expected the colour and basic design of the car to be known - then a translation might well use the word "even". Similarly if, as in naruto's example, the information were generally just more expansive than one might normally suppose. The presence of descriptive markers like そんな (or, for that matter, particle も) would also influence how the idea is understood.

But Japanese uses the same まで because in Japanese, it's the same concept in a different context.

Answer 3

まで cannot mean "only", you would have to use だけ / ばか��� / しかない to express that. This is not its empathetic usage ("even") since you both need a shocking / surprising extent and also a notable factor (i.e. X does notable factor to Y surprising extent).

From the context in your example まで is used to mark a limit and express the extent of your knowledge, i.e. they do know up till the fact that the car is japanese-made and black, and they know absolutely nothing more than that.

It may seem similiar to "only" but since まで marks extent, that implies they may know smaller details as well that lead "up till" the main one, in contrast to only knowing "the car is black and of japanese make" out of context.