User talk:ScottyBerg

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Hi -- you are asking good questions at the AfD, but they are based on a false premise (not one introduced by you). There is no BLP violation on the talk page -- it has been a very sensible discussion about whether to include information on the basis of the sources available. There is no small amount of misinformation in the AfD nomination and certain contributions by some delete !voters. I have been the main established contributor keeping watch over this article for the last two years -- if you have any questions about it I'll be happy to address them. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for clarifying - I appreciate it. I'm just trying to figure out why people are so vehemently in favor of deletion. I really respect DGG, and he's no deletionist as you know. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:06, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a legitimate broader concern about BLPs containing untrue negative information. In this case, that concern is misplaced: the information is negative, but it's not untrue (as evident for the fact that Abbas apologized for his errors [1]). JN466 has been very keen to give a different impression, and I agree that the reason is a puzzle. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:18, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

At this point there is no negative information of any kind. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

True. JN466 is nominating it now because I proposed to add a single sentence (based on the source above, with NPOV as a perfectly reasonable rationale), and it was becoming apparent that he was likely to lose the argument. It's a content dispute masquerading as a deletion discussion, in which JN466 is happy to foster the impression that there is some massive BLP violation. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I haven't followed the underlying dispute very closely. I know that there are good reasons not to include negative information apart from sourcing. Perhaps it's undue weight. Right now I have a fairly open mind, and I was hoping to get a response from DGG or another of the "deletes" that might address my concerns. I'm happy to change my vote to delete if there are sufficient grounds. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nomoskedasticity, how are you able to read Jayen's mind to know just what he is thinking? Also, why do you desire so badly to include the negative information about that person in the article? Cla68 (talk) 22:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really interested in your first question -- mainly because JN466 has repeatedly declined to answer some of my own questions about the basis for his actions. As for the second, it's really very simple (and I have been saying it consistently now for many months): NPOV, and the fact that the information (i.e., retraction of a scholarly article on grounds that parts were copied without proper attribution, a.k.a. plagiarism) is unquestionably true. It's not a terribly strong desire -- I'm likely to lose this argument and I won't shed any tears. But I do think it's the right approach. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As long as you've dropped in, perhaps you can explain to me what harm is done to Abbas by that article as currently written. It seems fine to me. Can the problem be addressed by keeping the article, keeping out the plagiarism stuff if it's problematic, and nuking whatever in the talk pages or archives that doesn't belong there? ScottyBerg (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

From what I understand, the guy has asked for the article to be deleted. If an individual arguably does not meet WP's notability standard, which is the case here, IMO, then I think we should delete the article. Also, after what has happened to this article in the recent past, do you think if you were Abbas you would be inclined to trust WP's administration and its promises to watch his article and keep it clean, especially with established editors continuing to campaign to include a mention of the pejorative information? Cla68 (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with the article history, but I'll take a look. I understand why the subject would want it deleted, but I don't think that's enough. He seems pretty prominent, yet I'm struck by the vehemence of the deletion !votes. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In giving the article history a skim, I understand more fully why the subject wants it deleted. The problem is the article in its previous version, but also the talk page. In effect, the talk page became a chat room where he was raked over the coals. I'm still not sure that deleting the article is the optimal way to deal with this. However, if policy allows subjects to request deletion in situations like this, then perhaps it should be deleted. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be grateful to have a couple of examples of the BLP violations on the talk page. I'm fully committed to BLP myself, and it would help to have a better sense of what others in the community consider to be violations -- I will take seriously the possibility that I should consider them that way myself. As for the article, I too can understand why the subject wants it deleted, but I take a different view as to how much weight that desire should carry in situations like this. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:46, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm talking about the extensive discussion, throughout the page, of plagiarism. Reading the page cold, without any preconceived notions about this dude, I came away with the view of him as a plagiarist who was fighting via IPs to keep this out of the encyclopedia. That was my overall impression, totally objective, uninvolved, not giving a hoot. I don't think we can properly subject subjects of BLPs to that kind of treatment if there is a valid reason not to include the plagiarism stuff, as apparently there was. In effect, it negates the decision not to include the plagiarism allegations because it's all laid out in the talk page. I'm not pointing figures or accusing anyone, just sayin. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. It puzzles me, however. My view, rooted in sustained close attention to the article, the talk page, and the relevant sources, is that he was a plagiarist fighting via IPs to keep it out of the encyclopedia (after his primary account, Drtahir007, was blocked for sockpuppets). Certainly prior to the point at which the Times Higher Education article was removed from their website (only a couple of weeks ago), there wasn't a valid reason not to include it. Even now, we know via the Citizenship Studies retraction linked above that, whatever its problems might be, the Times Higher article was not incorrect in its claims about that journal article. What I find so unfortunate about the AfD discussion is that many of those voting delete appear to believe he has been mistreated insofar as the plagiarism allegations are untrue, when in fact at a minimum the CS-related claims are true -- in which case it is not a BLP violation to include them (though of course also reasonable to take the other view), still less to discuss them on the talk page. I imagine this discussion might start to test your patience, and again i'm grateful for your thoughts so far. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 02:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nomo, with all due respect I think you're missing my point. As you know, I voted originally to keep because I didn't see what all the fuss was about. It was a positive article. He seemed reasonably notable. But when I turned to the talk page and weighed the delete comments, especially DGG, I began to understand the problem. It's not that random vandals have stopped in at the page to heave insults at Abbas. It's that respectable users, with unimpeachable motives, have been focused on the plagiarism allegations, giving the impression of him as an unethical and dishonest person. Previous versions of the article gave undue weight to the plagiarism allegations. Since evidently we allow subjects of biographies who are marginally notable to request deletion, I changed my vote. I am by nature a deletionist who believes that there is far too much in Wikipedia that just doesn't belong there, and that paring it all down is a good idea. Keep that in mind. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

	<font=3> Wishing you a "Feliz Navidad and a Prospero Año Nuevo" (Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year) Tony the Marine (talk)

• Wishing you and your loved ones the best this coming year. Take care, Tony the Marine (talk) 01:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much! My best to you and your family. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		For participation in this discussion. Thanks for your input. Acps110 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It's greatly appreciated. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Heck no, for me it is an honor. You know Scotty, to tell you the truth, even though at the beginning we got got off on the wrong foot, I too have come to appreciate your work and have learned to not jump the gun so quickly on issues. Thanks. Tony the Marine (talk) 16:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there. I'm blocking your account indefinitely as a sock of banned editor, User:Mantanmoreland. I've already discussed the matter and the evidence (including checkuser evidence) with the Arbitration Committee before blocking your account and I suggest you defer to them for unblock requests - Alison ^❤ 18:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know what's going on here? The Mantanmoreland case was before my time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scotty, can you e-mail me and tell me what's going on? Are you this Mantanmoreland? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like for you to e-mail me too about this. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For everyone's benefit, here's a link to the evidence.[2] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:41, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ha. The person who reported Scotty was also blocked as a sock.[3] Don't you love Wikipedia? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw this. It's absolutely insane. What "contributions"? What "checkuser evidence"? If there is checkuser evidence, then it just proves that checkuser evidence can be wrong. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, this report is from September of last year. Am I looking at the wrong one? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing else to which I have been notified. Just what you see from Alison. "Contributions." "Checkuser." WTF???? ScottyBerg (talk) 20:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what's going on. No one has even edited Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mantanmoreland since 17:42, September 12, 2011.[4] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The nexus of that SPI was that I had edited Gary Weiss (the alleged RL identity of Mantanmoreland) hence I must be Mantanmoreland. That was absurd, because I blundered into the Weiss article via Huggle, which is an automated tool. I recently edited the article again, which I see has resulted in chatter off-wiki[5]. Yes, I've watchlisted the article and yes, I edited it again. A user had wanted to add a section that was contrary to BLP. Those are the "contributions." I can't speak to the checkuser. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

HelloAnnoying closed it as a bad faith report.[6] This is all so weird. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what makes it weirder: I'm in this mess because of an automated tool. They should check my contributions and my original involvement in Gary Weiss. I'll go back and find it myself. That's what it all boils down to, if you read Wikipedia Review, as obviously Alison does. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:19, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here: my first edit to Gary Weiss was 17:14 12 May 2011. It was a Huggle edit. I had been on Huggle for the preceding 20 minutes, long before the vandal arrived in Weiss.[7]. That's how I became involved in that article. Those are the "contributions." So it's that, recent editing that raised the ire of people at Wikipedia Review, and, what, I am in the same ISP as Mantanmoreland? For that you ban an editor who has been here for two years and has 12,000 contributions?

Is Alison suggesting that I had clairvoyance that a vandal was arriving at Gary Weiss, began editing that article twenty minutes (or more) in advance, and then swooped in so that I could then watchlist it and do Mantanmoreland-like editing? And doing this approximately eighteen months after creating my account?ScottyBerg (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relax, it might just be some crazy mistake. I'll start a discussion at ANI. I think Alison may have gone offline. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly hope so. Since I'm blocked, I can't contribute to the discussion. Perhaps I can be unblocked for that purpose. It doesn't seem fair to not be allowed to participate. ScottyBerg (talk) 21:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I started a discussion at ANI.[8] I'm hoping that this is all some crazy mixup. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously, no one at AN/I can or will do anything in regards to a CheckUser block. The proper avenue is appeal to ArbCom. I suggest both of you stop complaining here and at AN/I, and ScottyBerg email ArbCom for appeal. Otherwise, you're just wasting your own time. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 21:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have contacted Arbcom, of course. But Alison said this block was based on contributions as well as checkuser. It would have to be, because otherwise it would not make any sense at all, given that I have been here for two years and have made 12,000 edits. I've just explained how contributions couldn't possibly justify a block. Since that is the case, what difference would it make if I used the same ISP as a banned user? ScottyBerg (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like this is too scary for any of the brave people at ANI to touch William M. Connolley (talk) 22:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand why they don't want to discuss checkuser findings, at least publicly, because of the privacy policy. But what about my contributions? How can anyone seriously suggest that my contributions are suggestive of sockpuppeting? If they are suggesting that there are multiple articles that suggest sockpuppeting, what are those articles? Were they also Huggle contributions? ScottyBerg (talk) 22:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They're saying a CheckUser was performed and apparently it said you were this other person. They're also saying that your only recourse is to appeal to ArbCom. If the allegation is true, I suggest that the best way to move forward is to admit it. You've been editing Wikipedia for two years without any problems AFAIK, so I don't see a need to keep a block on a productive editor. Of course, that's just my opinion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But I'm not that other account, and (as far as I know) my first edit suggesting otherwise took place eighteen months after I started editing! ScottyBerg (talk) 22:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scott, if you like, I can file an appeal on your behalf to ArbCom. If I were to do so, I would argue you've been editing productively under this account for 2 years, have 12,000+ edits, and you've been able to do so without any issues. There's no point in blocking productive editors who aren't causing any problems. Perhaps WMC might be willing to jointly file the appeal with me? Many editors have a lot of respect for Dr. Connolley so his endorsement might help a great deal. But here's the thing and I cannot stress this enough: If you really are a sock of this other user, it's best to just fess up and come clean. Lying will be held against you. Please think about that carefully before responding. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks and yes, I would appreciate it if you could appeal. I have an appeal myself pending with Arbcom, but I don't see how it can hurt. As for your final point, I don't have to think carefully because I am not a sock of anyone. One question: I can't find the wikistalk tool, so I can't compare my edits with Mantanmoreland. Does it still exist? My top edited pages and his bear no resemblancce. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Yet another example of how CUs are, a lot of the time, utterly useless. Silverseren^C 23:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

wikistalk --SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:27, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are two ways we can appeal:

a) The sock puppet allegation is wrong.

b) It doesn't matter whether sock puppet allegation is correct or not. People who can productively edit Wikipedia for 2 years without any problems shouldn't be blocked.

The problem with a) is that I don't know anything about sock puppet investigations. I don't know how they're conducted. I don't know what sort of evidence is considered acceptable. I rarely, if ever, comment on them. IOW, I'm not qualified to make that argument. I'm willing to make argument b) but a) is not something I know much about. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stalker report--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:32, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Sphilbrick: Is that good or bad? For comparison, here's me with Mantanmoreland,[9] ScottyBerg, [10] Sphilbrick,[11] William M. Connolley,[12] and Silver seren.[13] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quest, to answer your first question, what is galling to me is how I'm being blocked for an article that I found through Huggle. It's really that simple. I wouldn't be in this mess if I hadn't been Huggling. I have asked Arbcom to reinstate and I don't want to prejudice that, but I just don't think this is even remotely fair. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amusingly if you compare Alison to Mantanmoreland (as a random related example) there seems to be more intersection than with yourself. Which doesn't give me a lot of faith in the tool ;) --Errant ^(chat!) 23:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Stop edit conflicting me, gosh darnit!) User:Edinburgh Wanderer reverted my comment for some reason, here's what I said.

"Oh no, look. I have 7 articles in common with A Quest For Knowledge, we must be the same person! Oh no, Phil, I must be you too!. I bet you didn't guess that I was Alison all along, did you?" Silverseren^C 23:50, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's me with Alison[14] and Jimbo[15] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Silverseren, before you were reverted, you also said, "That's it? That's all there is? 6 actual articles in total. This is absolutely worthless." ScottyBerg (talk) 23:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hardly an expert on the tool, have only used it a couple times, but I'll take mild issue with errant's "lack of faith". The tool isn't making any pronouncements, simply identifying overlap, which gives pointers to investigators. It might be useful to look up known sockpuppets, to get a sense of what a true positive looks like.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I apparently have a ton of overlap with Bongwarrior. It's kinda freaky. I can see why ED thinks we're the same person. Silverseren^C 00:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@SPhilbrick; oh, sure, I can see how it could be useful. Unfortunately it runs afoul of statistical fallacy - which means on such low numbers I wouldn't trust it to tell you much. I suspect you could get greater intersection with any number of regular editors on here (for example anyone on BLP watch will probably intersect heavily with me; i.e. Off2riorob and I share over 100 articles in common: http://toolserver.org/~mzmcbride/stalker/?db=enwiki_p&user1=Off2riorob&user2=ErrantX&namespace=0&namespace=1&) --Errant ^(chat!) 00:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to be a broken record, but based on the previous report and the thread at Wikipedia Review that instigated this, the "contributions" element relates to one article. I implore all to please be aware of the circumstances in which I initially edited that article: randomly assigned to it by Huggle eighteen months after I began editing. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify: in blocking me, Alison did not cite contributions. Her exact words were: "per behavioral evidence and per CU." So it's my "behavior," whatever that means. I suspect that must have something to do with my contributions. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This sort of reasoning has been submitted before and I seem to remember, in previous times, the "evidence" didn't hold up to scrutiny. And what happened to the transparency pledge, anyways? Silverseren^C 00:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I've had my differences with Scotty in the past and have come to respect his work and integrity in this project. I refuse to believe the "sockpuppet" allegations made against him. There has to be some mistake. He deserves to have his reputation restored by who ever accused him of such after this whole thing is cleared up. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) This doesn't make sense. According to HelloAnnyong in the SPI linked above, Mantanmoreland and all his socks were Stale for checkuser purposes in September 2011. None of them have edited since (last edit by anyone in the confirmed socks cat was 22 February 2010), so where on earth has the checkuser evidence linking this account to Mantanmoreland come from? Copyedede, a suspected sock that isn't blocked, edited recently, but that wouldn't be grounds to either a) block ScottyBerg without blocking that account too (it hasn't been) or b) tag as confirmed if the link is to a suspected sock. It's be interesting to know what the behavioural evidence is; apart from the not unreasonably large overlap in articles edited I can't see a similarity. Anyone else think we've just lost a good editor for no real reason? Alzarian16 (talk) 00:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hope we haven't lost him, he's still commenting here after all. We'll get this fixed up, Scotty, don't worry.

Does anyone else feel like this is a repeat of the "saving old CU data" no-no that was revealed in the Arbcom email leaks? I don't see where the info could be coming from, other than someone saving the info on their computer. And we've already established that do that is a BIG problem. Silverseren^C 00:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I hope you're right. One comment: This Copeyede also seems to have been swept into the "Gary Weiss dragnet." I see in his contributions one contribution to Gary Weiss and the rest to Press TV. I haven't done a thorough check, but I have never edited that article to the best of my knowledge, unless I was brought into it by Huggle too.

@Tony, your support is really appreciated. ScottyBerg (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, there's secret evidence. I don't know how you're supposed to respond to secret evidence. Does anyone have any experience in this sort of thing? I don't and I'm at a loss. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we should wait 24 hours. If you don't get a reply by then, Scotty, we'll probably have to escalate this to ANI again, hopefully more successfully this time. Silverseren^C 01:39, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we don't want to escalate to ANI because apparently that's the wrong venue. We have to escalate to ArbCom. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't we done that already? I thought they were the ones we were waiting for a reply from. Silverseren^C 01:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I just wanted to mention that not all of the evidence is secret. There is "behavioral evidence." Here's the behavioral evidence: I've been here two years, I have just under 13,000 edits, and I have edited over 4,000 articles. I fell under the Gary Weiss Dragnet after coming to that article through Huggle eighteen months after I started editing. ScottyBerg (talk) 01:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)@Silver seren: From what I understand, Scott's appeal to ArbCom isn't public. No one knows what's going on there. What I am proposing is a public appeal to ArbCom that the whole community can see and weigh in on. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If that's going to happen I would like to be unblocked for the purpose of participating. ScottyBerg (talk) 02:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What?! Arbcom be transparent??? Whoever heard of such a thing! I must say, you've completely lost your marbles. (Though if you make such an appeal, I will immediately go there and support it.) Silverseren^C 02:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the discussion could be limited to my contributions, horrific as they are. I see on AQFK's talk page what one editor sees is a smoking gun in my East Harlem contributions. He doesn't explain that, and no Mantanmoreland sock has edited East Harlem as far as I know. If we're going to examine my behavior, what about examining the fact that I have not edited any articles in the "locus of dispute" of the Mantanmoreland arbitration case except for the one that I was automatically referred to by Huggle? Yes, I would like to see my "behavior" publicly explained, this recurrent bullshit laid to rest and my name cleared. ScottyBerg (talk) 02:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got an email from ScottyBerg, saying "Hans, have you seen my talk page, and how I've been banned?" and nothing more. I vaguely remember interacting with ScottyBerg in one way or another a long time ago, but don't remember where or whether it was positive or negative interactions. However, recently my immediate associations with the user name (which I keep seeing in various contexts) were those of a mature, intelligent good-faith user whose opinions are worth considering, and this likely results from those interactions. The Mantanmoreland Arbcom case and banning happened around the first half year of my account, and I know very little about them other than that there seems to be an association to a real name that does com up occasionally. I have never paid much attention to these things, but I seem to associate that real name with 'elder banned editor' type comments.

There is no arguing with secret evidence, of course. I looked at the "extended evidence" in WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Mantanmoreland/Archive#Evidence, which is remarkably unconvincing. I use Wikistalk regularly when I suspect someone of sockpuppeting. The editing overlap in this case is so marginal that I would personally consider it exonerating evidence. (My own overlap with the two Mantanmoreland accounts is even less, although I have twice as many edits as ScottyBerg. But I have never used any automatic vandal fighting tools, and my number of unique pages edited is less than ScottyBerg's.) The regular use of "rply" in edit summaries is not very common, but is an extremely weak bit of evidence. My superficial examination of ScottyBerg's contributions history showed a natural progression from no edit summaries via longer abbreviations such as "rply" and "cmt" to a preference for extremely short abbrevations such as "r" and "c". The use of "--" in edit summaries also seems in no way remarkable to me. I don't know why it is so common among other groups, but among mathematicians it's a very widespread practice because it is the standard in TeX source code.

Based on all this, it is inconsistent with my good opinion of Alison that this 'evidence' factored into the decision in any meaningful way, and I guess that there is other behavioural evidence. There may be valid reasons not to disclose it. E.g., if the operator of the Mantanmoreland account has a history of unusually good dissimulation and the socks are genuinely problematic, then any signature traits that have been isolated should not be made public and other efforts should be made to minimise the danger of false positives.

I certainly support the Arbitration Committee giving ScottyBerg a fair hearing, but this seems so obvious that I doubt my opinion is needed here. As the real name of Mantanmoreland is known and ScottyBerg appears to be a real-name account, I guess that a driving license faxed to the Foundation could play an important role in resolving this matter. Hans Adler 08:50, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I found some additional evidence that tends to exonerate you but might explain a false positive. I sent the details by email. Hans Adler 09:13, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reading into the situation I believe the "secrecy" due to COI/Privacy is because the alleged Sockmaster account is linked to a RL name. Really the cat is out of the bag with that one, so it doesn't seem to matter all that much (it's even mentioned directly by an editor on AQFK's talk page). --Errant ^(chat!) 09:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• ScottyBerg, I suggest you forward any evidence to the Arbitration Committee (even if it was uncovered or written by Hans Adler or another user) so that we can consider it during your appeal. Thank you, AGK [•] 11:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My evidence consists mainly of potential outing information about ScottyBerg. Before the mailing list leak I would simply have CCed it to Arbcom to expedite things. My theory is that ScottyBerg has a lot of things in common with Mantanmoreland that could explain false positives, but does not know him personally, or knows him personally but does not know he is Mantanmoreland. If my guess is correct, ScottyBerg may be able to clear things up simply by providing certain information about himself. But it is for him to decide who to trust. Hans Adler 12:34, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hans I appreciate your suggestion but it is based on a surmise about my identity that's not correct. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think it's obvious to you how I came to my conclusion. I'm sorry I couldn't help. Hans Adler 17:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the benefit of those members of the community who are monitoring Alison's indefinite block of this account: the Arbitration Committee has received, and is considering, an appeal by Scotty of his block. Due to the nature of the evidence for this block (that it was based in part on checkuser evidence), the ban appeal must be discussed in private. We will keep the community informed of the progress and result of the appeal on this talk page (or on our Noticeboard in the event the appeal is successful). As a personal comment, I would emphasise that, although behavioural evidence is sometimes as inconclusive as technical evidence, there is a substantive basis for this block (which is why Alison's prior consultation met with our approval). However, in addition to the behaviour evidence, there is also compounding technical evidence that makes this block more solid than might appear to editors without access to the checkuser tool. In anticipation of your patience and understanding, thank you. AGK [•] 11:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AGK, you seem like a fair person so please put yourself in my position. Do you understand how textbook Kafkaesque this is? I was suddenly blocked for the vaguest of reasons ("behavioral evidence"), along with secret evidence of a "technical" nature. I can't face my accuser, who immediately vanished, and I have to surmise what the accusations are by trying to guess at what my behavior may have been that warranted a block, as I've tried to do. I have to "appeal" based on that surmise, and not on what actually is being claimed. You say that there is "substantial basis" but you still won't tell me, privately or publicly, what it is. That's just wrong.

Since you won't tell me, and since I can only guess what that "evidence" may be, I've had to comb through the Mantanmoreland case and associated dramas. I immediately saw that it involves articles that (with that one exception) I've never even remotely edited. I have no interest in business or theology, and never have. Mantanmoreland engaged in misconduct such as using multiple accounts simultaneously and tendentious editing pushing a POV on business and theological topics in a narrow range of articles. So far as I know, no one has made that claim against me, but I don't know for certain because nobody has told me why I was blocked except vaguely.

The RL person allegedly associated with that account has just written a book on Ayn Rand. That is another subject that I have never touched on, even tangentially, in my two years here.

When the SPI case was brought in September by an editor who was actually sockpuppeting and who was blocked, the discussion spilled over to Newyorkbrad's user page. I think Risker's comments here are apt: "I believe that even the SPI was excessive and has a potentially chilling effect. The articles that were related to the Mantanmoreland case continue to seem to attract far too much suspicion aimed at anyone who makes even positive edits (including removal of poorly sourced material from a BLP, or addition/improvement of reference sources), and this is unhealthy for the encyclopedia. Simply editing that article is insufficient reason to initiate an SPI, in my books; that the edits were entirely within keeping of all policies, were in response to the addition of poorly sourced material, were edits that would easily have been seen on routine recent changes patrol....these are all reasons to believe that ScottyBerg was editing the project in good faith."

I was blocked after carrying out this edit[16], reversing on UNDUE and BLP grounds a bad-faith edit by an editor who I since seen posts copiously against the RL subject of the article off-wiki. My edit was in good faith, as I have been watchlisting the article since I was brought to it automatically via Huggle six months ago. I watchlist many articles I find through vandal fighting. I think it's amazing I should be blocked after doing that. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand completely, but I don't want to make any judgement until we have heard from Alison and the arbitrators who have not yet opined on the block appeal. For that reason alone, I'm reluctant to comment on the validity of the evidence at this point, but we will look into this fairly, and consider all the evidence - and try to do so expeditiousness. Thank you for keeping a level head during this discussion; most such blockees would lose their temper, not making the matter any easier (and probably worse). Kind regards, AGK [•] 13:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But how can you say you'll look at it fairly if I have no way of responding to accusations against me? There are also WP:BATTLE aspects to this, based on on- and off-wiki comments, that I find disturbing and which reflect on the integrity of the process. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of problematic edits by ScottyBerg, I urge ArbCom to unblock ScottyBerg immediately, and then undertake an investigation into the allegations. That way, the committee can proceed without rushing. There is substantial evidence that allowing ScottyBerg to edit is not an immediate threat to the project, and the only reason to eventually block would be if the evidence finds conclusive evidence of sockpuppetry.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@AGK: How can the community possibly review this block if you can't tell us what the secret evidence is? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I agree, and thank you for that. Whatever is done should be transparent, and I should have the opportunity to respond, and not just guess at what people may or may not be saying privately. That's just not fair. The BATTLE aspects of this bother me. This edit from about an hour ago by Hans Adler[17] is almost identical to the edit that I carried out a few days ago, which was immediately leaped upon off-wiki by the editor perpetrated the edit and his associates, resulting in my block. I have been watchlisting that article because it was subject to this kind of BLP issue and tendentious editing. The article is indeed a toxic one as Risker pointed out. Ironically, disruptive editing such as what I corrected is supposed to be subject of Arbcom discretionary sanctions under the Mantanmoreland case. But the only sanctions seem to be taken against an editor (me) who corrects disruptive editing (i.e., adding a section on the article subject's weight). ScottyBerg (talk) 13:41, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with everything said so far - at least some indication of the evidence being used, as well comment as to the areas that are off-limits due to privacy. I have always found Alison to have sound judgement. However the circumstantial evidence and the off-wiki incitement (Alison notes she is a Wikipedia Review regular) worries me. I'd suggest we simply get the community to overturn this block for the time being. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:54, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure of the correct approach to make the question formal, but I also emailed the committee. ScottyBerg, it occurs to me that the only potential reason for not unblocking pending a full investigation is the possibility that you might edit Gary Weiss or other related articles in the meantime. while that argument is exceedingly thin, as those edits would be easy to revert, if you were to voluntarily agree, pending the outcome of the investigation, to stay away from any articles edited by Mantanmoreland, it would remove the only rationale I can think of for not unblocking, pending the completion of the investigation. Perhaps that assurance would persuade the committee that they should unblock, and continue the investigation in non-emergency mode.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to that condition, as a voluntary step on my part. My only hesitancy is the implication that I've done something wrong, and I plainly have not. There has been problematic editing in that article, but not by me. Other than that, I don't object to not editing articles that I have never edited in the first place. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In reviewing the relevant discussion at Wikipedia Review, I notice that Alison has been a regular participant in heated discussion about Gary Weiss dating back three years. Her name was very recently invoked there even though she hasn't been participating in that discussion lately. My block was instigated at Wikipedia Review by a banned editor, so my unease over this is greatly increased. The BATTLE aspect of the article is why I commenced watching that article, and seeing a drama played out off-wiki in this fashion and leading to my block I find deeply disturbing. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what sort of weight my opinion would have here, as I personally consider ScottyBerg to be a substantially-sized douchebag, but I find this block - and the subsequent actions by admins and ARBCOM - deeply troubling. From SB's account, he was blocked after making a single edit to an article once deeply worked by MM. No discussion, no completed checkuser and no endorsement by another admin (a practice that I think needs to be part of the indef blocking process). Then, the blocking admin vanishes like a fart in the wind. Unacceptable, Alison.

To make matters more troubling, AGK updates SB (who, to my complete surprise, doesn't act like a total choad at the accusation or block) that ARBCOM is aware of the problem but will be handling the matter privately. Say what? I cannot imagine what the need for privacy would be. MM's real life identity is, and has been made, exceptionally clear to even those (like myself) who don't have the time or inclination to read WR. The only reason the matter should be private in ARBCOM is if ScottyBerg was ambivalent or silent about the accusation, which he certainly is not. AGK needs to be far, far more specific as to the need for privacy here. Transparency is ALWAYS best. ALWAYS.
And I reject Hans Adler's suggestion that ScottyBerg should forward a copy of his real identity to ARBCOM; the user hasn't done anything to warrant proving anything to anyone. People are allowed to edit as douchebags in Wikipedia, so long as their behavior isn't destructive or inherently non-conducive to an encyclopedic environment. As much as I personally dislike ScottyBerg, I haven't see much of that behavior here. Unless their behavior is such that they have prompted a solid, verifiable need to prove their identity, they should be allowed to edit via a handle or even anonymously.
Lastly, I think SB should be unblocked, pending the conclusion of the secret ARBCOM discussion.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear, there was a single edit that caused immediate consternation, as I had the audacity to remove a section on the subject's weight. That was followed by edit warring by the account that added the "weight" section and a few others edits that (gasp!) added information to the article. The block took place a week later, after a checkuser was requested off-wiki by a banned editor having a RL issue with the article subject and with anyone who enforces BLP in that article. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:50, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I made my suggestion under an incorrect assumption that I won't explain on-wiki. You are of course right about ScottyBerg not being under any obligation to self-out to any functionary – as a matter of principle. However, whether this also holds in practice depends on the non-public evidence. It's the same as in real life. You shouldn't have to prove that you didn't kill your neighbour, but if your gloves are found next to his body that's precisely what you will be expected to do, even if you are innocent. Hans Adler 17:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then the editors who have been defacing that article, adding sections on the subject's weight for instance, need to be treated similarly: blocked without notice on flimsy grounds, and then made to provide personally identifying information. I'll agree to that kind of fair treatment. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We can't leave anything out. They need to be first subjected to discussion outside of Wikipedia. Then a regular at that website has to come on to Wikipedia to do the bidding of a banned editor. After that, they need to "appeal" against accusations that haven't been disclosed to them. They then need to expend considerable amounts of time trying to guess what kind of accusations have been made. In the midst of this, someone from arbcom has to come on wiki and say that things are a lot fairer than they seem, because secret "technical" and "behaviorial" evidence is "substantial," but still won't say what it is. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottyBerg: Has Alison or anybody from ArbCom shown you the evidence yet? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. However, someone was kind enough to email me this link. So I'm sure that in due course I'll be reading through the "evidence" at Wikipedia Review. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(sock removed)

Good question, which deserves an answer. Also, Scotty, instead of campaigning on this talk page, why didn't you just discreetly email a copy of your driver's license and a utility bill in your name to ArbCom to show that you aren't related to Mantanmoreland? Cla68 (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't speak for SB obviously. The ArbCom is an organization that judges people in secret closed hearings and convicts them based on evidence that is withheld from the accused, for reasons that they also refuse to disclose. And you expect SB to trust this lot with personally identifying information like a drivers' license and power bill? Really? Reyk _YO! 22:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't we all supposed to be aware that we risk our privacy simply by interacting with others on the Internet? Another question...Scotty, why did you add Weiss' new book to his article, using the publisher's promotional page as the source? Cla68 (talk) 23:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There's a big sliding scale of privacy risks on the internet, with incidental risks from ordinary day-to-day activity at one end and giving your internet banking password to a "Nigerian prince" at the other. You want SB to email personally identifying info to an organization that has already, by its actions, demonstrated that it doesn't wish him well and can't be trusted to be open and transparent in its dealings with others. Where on that scale do you think that falls? Reyk _YO! 23:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to talk about why we're in a position where we pretty much have to trust ArbCom on certain issues, and why we have to accept that if we want to participate fully in Wikipedia, then we can take up that discussion on your talk page. In the meantime, I hope Scotty will answer how he was emailed the WR link when he has his email disabled, why he has been remonstrating so vocally here instead of quietly taking up his case with ArbCom, and why he added promotional material to the Weiss article. Cla68 (talk) 23:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clear up the speculation surrounding the first point: I was the one who sent the link, as part of a response to an email I received from Scotty via the Wikipedia email service shortly after my previous comment. Nothing wrong with that, I assume? Alzarian16 (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What would be funny is if we ran a CU on every single editor. I wonder how many socks from respected editors would be uncovered. IIRC, last year (2010), someone ran for ArbCom and ending up getting banned after it was discovered they they had dozens of socks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Alison has materialized on her talk page to say that she understands I am "working with Arbcom." I am not. Apart from providing Arbcom a list of my top edited stories in comparison with Mantanmoreland, and a few other things last night, there is nothing more that I can say because I haven't been asked any questions or shown any "evidence." ScottyBerg (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Scotty: If you don't trust ArbCom, can you e-mail me a copy of your driver's license? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:23, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quest, I'll think about it. I resent the whole issue, candidly, while I appreciate your offer. Cla68, if you look at the edits, I originally simply reverted Cookiehead's edit adding an entire section on Weiss' weight. He reverted me. Instead of taking it to the talk page or DR, as I should have done, I went to the source he quoted and broadened that section to include his other speaking engagements. In retrospect that wasn't very good judgment, as it didn't help the UNDUE issue much, while ameliorating the BLP concern. While at that site I saw something that needed to be added, which is that he has a friggin book coming out! That's a lot more important in the BLP of an author than his weight, don't you think. So I added it, using the publishers site as a source. I don't see anything wrong with using the publisher's site as a source for that kind of edit, and I stand by that edit. Right now the article is odd as there is a book in bibliography that isn't mentioned in the article. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suggest that no one send anyone their personal documents to anyone they don't know personally, at least in the meantime, because that may cause more issues than it solves. It is probably worth being patient a few days and waiting to see what ArbCom has to say first. In addition, ScottyBerg, please refrain from provoking Cla68 and just use your mental ignore filter. Bickering here will not help your case and may cause this page to be locked. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 23:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I just wanted to add that I haven't been asked for such identification, and I am up to "here" with volunteering this and that and getting radio silence from those people for over 24 hours now, except to acknowledge my complaint. I feel like I'm dealing with an auto warranty fulfillment center and not a website I've been volunteering at for two years and 13,000 edits. ScottyBerg (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(sock removed)

• As a further update, we think this will take some time to review in full, and it will be about a week until we complete the appeal (which is being expedited). Scotty, if you want to be unblocked pending the appeal then please ask the Committee directly, but I don't think my colleagues will consent. Jack, I'm not sure how much more explicit I could have been in my original post: we are reviewing this in private because the block was partly based on checkuser evidence. We cannot discuss checkuser evidence in public, per the Wikimedia Foundation's m:Privacy policy. On general principle, I would prefer we discuss the appeal in public, but compliance with this website's contractual and legal obligations is not optional. AGK [•] 23:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW that is not accurate. The privacy policy includes a number of very broad caveats that mean you could do things in public. The PP, as with many similar policies other sites employ, serves not as guidance over what to release so much as a get-out clause for releasing data. We hide behind it too much. Part of the get out is "With permission of the affected user," which it appears you have. :) --Errant ^(chat!) 00:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The privacy policy would not apply to "behavioral evidence," and certainly would not apply to behavioral evidence being shared with me for response. So far that has not happened. I have written to Arbcom to ask for a provisional unblock. Someone asked why I haven't "pursued this quietly with Arbcom." But I haven't been engaged by arbcom, so I don't know how I'm supposed to do that. I'm trying, but I can only guess about what to address. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is arbcom working off User:Vee8Njinn/SB...someone please track the IP that created that username...I haven't looked but is this a mirror of something posted at Wikipedia Review?--MONGO 00:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC) Nevermind...Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Vee8Njinn/Archive...by why does the page still exist?--MONGO 00:07, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Scotty: Just blank out all the personal information on your driver's license except your name. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:17, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbcom...have you looked at User:Cookiehead?--MONGO 03:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand how, with a userpage like that, he's allowed to continue editing. Silverseren^C 03:33, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And then there's the sock whose contributions to this page I've just deleted. ScottyBerg (talk) 03:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One must ask Cla68 why he is still involved in this after he was once blocked by User:Durova for his activities in this matter. I suppose I should have been too, according to the experts at WR....[18]--MONGO 03:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quest, thanks but I think it's best to follow Fetchcomm's advice for the time being. ScottyBerg (talk) 03:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's a conspiracy, Scotty, don't you see?! :O Silverseren^C 03:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I should be indefinitely banned...I edited the article too!--MONGO 04:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody posted above about promotional material being added to the article. Well, my first edit was to remove promotional material - a reference to a Weiss speaking topic, his weight loss, with a link to a speakers bureau website. That was inserted by the Cookiehead account.[19][20] I didn't add the reference to Weiss's book; that was first put in by Cookiehead.[21] ScottyBerg (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just thought I would put in my two cents. One point of comparison between Scotty and Gary Weiss/Mantan can be seen with this blog post from Weiss. Scotty has made a lot of edits to articles on Harlem. Specifically, the account has made nearly all of the contributions to the Italian Harlem article since 2010, a subject specifically mentioned in the blog post. Another point of interest is that Mantan created the List of Fordham University people and one of the alum listed there is Adam Clayton Powell IV, a politician from Harlem, whose article has numerous contributions from Scotty as well. On an odd side note, there is a Gary Weiss at Fordham University, but apparently not the same as the journalist (maybe he Googled himself?). On top of the edits to the Gary Weiss article and the two week gap between the Scotty account being registered and a group of Mantan socks being blocked, it seems reasonable to conclude that Scotty is Weiss/Mantan.

However, I also think this matter with Cookiehead needs to be looked at. From looking at Wikipedia Review it seems the initial, rather comical edit, was fully intended as a trap with the editor going to WR to boast of his success. That raises the question of whether the editor was just obscenely lucky, or whether Cookie knew the Scotty account was online somehow. Maybe there was some unseen off-wiki coordination on this little trap that was sprung on Scotty. Shenanigans like that are not much help to Wikipedia either and should be looked at.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:44, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sure I've edited the Harlem articles a lot. If you look at my edits you'll see they're mostly cleanup. If you look at my pre-Alison user page you can see that New York neighborhood articles are my major focus, along with public transportation[22]: "New York City neighborhood articles are a mess. The neighborhoods themselves re often hazily defined, based on single sources or sometimes none at all. The articles are sometimes edited by local politicians to promote themselves and attack their political opponents, and seem to be a dumping ground for self-aggrandizement by drive-by SPAs and even established editors." That was a reference to East Harlem, which was one of the worst and is still pretty bad. When I first found it it was used to make unverified, apparently false claims about a local politician who was a Wikipedia editor and spammed the project mercilessly. That explains my top contribution [23] and my contribution to the Powell article, mostly cleanup in all the articles. Powell was not the Wikipedia editor but was targeted, and had complained about it. My biggest focus is articles on Chinatown, again mostly cleanup, and my second biggest contribution is Doyers Street (Manhattan), which I essentially created. My top-edited articles are dominated by articles on neighborhoods in Manhattan (Koreatown, Bowery, etc.) and public transportation, especially old lines.

What Cookiehead indicates is how this block of me was instigated off-wiki and is a continuation of an off-wiki RL battle involving people with a RL grudge against Weiss and editors preventing vandalism to his Wiki entry. I've been targeted since I first encountered the Weiss article in May 2011.

As for the timing of my commencement of editing: My first edit to any articles involved in the Mantan arbitration was the Huggle edit (an automated tool) to Weiss fifteen months after I began editing.ScottyBerg (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In reading through that blog, I found that Weiss's principal focus is not Harlem. He had one post on Harlem and thousands on Overstock.com, its CEO, naked shortselling and finance, and I haven't gone anywhere near those topics. He is writing a book about Ayn Rand, and I haven't ever edited anything on Rand, libertarianism or anything close. Mantanmoreland had multiple socks operating simultaneously, and the socks had other socks operating in support. I still haven't heard from Arbcom, but I assume that kind of behavior is not being claimed against me. No one, not even on Wikipedia Review, has accused me of that but I guess the day is young. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cookiehead is a WR meatpuppet...at the least. I'm not surprised that the same people who supported Wordbomb and banned editors like Rootology being able to return are involved in this. Frankly, even if Scotty is a reincarnation of Mantanmoreland, I'm not seeing any editing by Scotty that appears to be problematic in terms of the rationale behind the ban of Mantanmoreland.MONGO 18:28, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mongo, to be fair, as I've been involved in other SPIs (as a prosecutor, not a defendant), so I know that whether I'm a good guy or not probably doesn't count for much if I'm this Mantanmoreland. But your second point is relevant in that he abused multiple accounts, and that is why he was banned. That was his main behavioral trait. I have never socked, and nobody has ever accused me of socking. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scotty, I was going to reply to Purgedclub before you deleted his post but I think the comment is worthwhile for anyone with similar doubts. As the "email this user" form warns; "The form below will send a single e-mail message to this user. Your e-mail address (as entered in your user preferences) will appear in the From header of the message so that the recipient will be able to reply directly to you." Although your own account has email notification disabled it is clear from your talkpage that you have emailed a number of users who now have your address without you having to publicly offer it. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I deleted it because he's an SPA, making a fuss over nothing. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am stunned that ScottyBerg's offer to stay away from Mantanmoreland articles while this is being sorted out was not immediately seen as reasonable. I say this, even with the possiblity that the evidence comes in against Scotty. Unless it is 100% certain, in which case, one week is not needed, what possible harm can come from letting ScottyBerg edit in the meantime?

I'm fully aware that I'm not privy to all relevant information. While I come down, in general, on the side of transparency, I've seen enough situations where in camera was warranted that I', not going to rail about the secrecy aspect. Nor am I going to complain about the possible one week to resolve. These are volunteers, this is potentially tricky, and I want it done right.

However, given that there is no evidence of an immediate threat, I don't understand the position.

I distinguish this from other cases where an editor is creating problems, and there is a block, and some question about whether the block should be lifted or not. I can understand, in those circumstances, why the default is to leave the block in place until the matter is settled. This case is different, and I have seen nothing from the Committee even hinting why the block should remain in place pending resolution.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:03, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am largely unfamiliar with the background here, both of ScottyBerg and the Mantanmoreland case, but I think I get the gist of it. What I do not understand is why this particular block is any different than any other checkuser block. Checkuser evidence is generally not shared with the person being blocked and is definitely not shared in any detail. In that sense, all checkuser blocks are made using secret evidence. I do not see what makes ScottyBerg a special case. Nor do I understand why anyone would ask that Scotty Berg be allowed to continue editing while their block is reviewed by ArbCom. Yes, ScottyBerg has a large number of edits and some history here, but blocked users generally do not get "out" on "bail" pending appeal. Other blocked users make an unblock request or file an appeal to ArbCom and wait for the results. If it turns out that ScottyBerg has been incorrectly blocked, that is an unhappy situation, but it will be resolved and a few days without the ability to edit Wikipedia should not harm anyone. I should know better than to express my opinion in such a charged situation, but I do not see that ScottyBerg deserves any more or any less consideration than any other blocked user. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a regular at SPI, so I will happily accept correction is my surmises are incorrect: it is my belief, that when checkuser indicates at user:x may well be user:y, that it isn't hard to find a lot of behavior evidence to support the claim. Common phrasing, common editing times, and most importantly, strongly overlapping areas of interest.

When user:y has been blocked for contributing negatively to the encyclopedia, then it is natural to worry that unblocked user:x may also contribute negatively.

That doesn't appear to fit the facts here. Mantanmoreland was found to have a RL interest in certain articles, so the concern about COI and POV was overwhelming. That might mean that edits in other areas wouldn't be problematic, but, given the evidence,t he community chose to block Mantanmoreland. In contrast, no one has identified any substantive problems with ScottyBerg's edits in other areas, and those constitute a body of work far in excess of the median editor. Indeed, I haven't yet seen convincing evidence that the edits of articles of interest to Mantanmoreland have been problematic, the sole claim appears to be that ScottyBerg is editing them.

To summarize, in other cases, allowing the editor to continue to edit pending resolution ("bail" so to speak) had risks and few benefits. In this case, I see benefits and no risks.

That's what appears different to me.

Maybe someone with more SPI experience can correct me.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to making arguments based on your assumption of what the checkuser evidence consists of. That is just going to cloud the facts of case in people's minds. I'm more than passingly familiar with SPI cases, and I cannot recall a case in which someone was unblocked while the checkusers consulted. I can recall a case where an admin who likely had a larger number of edits than ScottyBerg was blocked when it was discovered that they were a blocked user. They were not unblocked pending appeal. As I said, ScottyBerg should be treated the same way as other blocked editors and other blocked editors should be treated the same way as ScottyBerg. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Or to put it another way, blocks are supposed to be preventative, not punative. Nobody has been able to demonstrate any proof of imminent harm to Wikipedia in allowing SB to continue editing. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain this statement "your assumption of what the checkuser evidence consists of". I don't recall making any assumptions about what checkuser info looks like, because I do not know. (I have some guesses, but I won't share them, because they are not particularly educated guesses.) My comments about Common phrasing, and common editing times are not comments about checkuser evidence, as that isn't AFAIK, checkuser evidence.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:12, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to correct a couple of points: first, Mantanmoreland was blocked for abusing multiple accounts.[24]. I don't see anything about COI in the block record. As I pointed out previously, that was his modus operandi and I haven't been accused of that. Secondly, there's been no complaints about the substance of any of my edits, anywhere, leading up to this block. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that question could be asked of most blocks. Why are some users blocked for a day but other users blocked for a week? Is it because they need to be "prevented" from doing something for a longer period, or is it because despite the "blocks are not punitive" trope, they are, in part, punitive? But again, why is ScottyBerg any different? Or, to put it another way, what harm will come (to Wikipedia) from not allowing ScottyBerg to edit for a few days while this gets sorted out? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:19, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think the problem is that the anonymity gives people a certain level of immunity from scrutiny. There are real life interests that I mentioned, where Scotty does overlap in addition to the obvious one. I also find the speedy reaction of Scotty each time someone makes a change to the Gary Weiss article suspicious, no matter the reason. In fact, the first time Scotty goes on to the article is after involvement by User:Christofurio who is a known real-life associate of Gary Weiss.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, my first edit was within a couple of minutes. It was a Huggle edit! ScottyBerg (talk) 20:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ecx3)I've started looking through some SPI reports, so I would have a better handle on practices. I've reviewed roughly 90 claims. In most of them, the edit counts were under 100. A few were a few hundred. I ran across one with 7000 edits. Blocked, then unblocked 58 minutes later.

My review is obviously incomplete. Can someone with more experience in the area, point me to some SPI investigations involving a editor with 10K edits or more, so I can see how they were handled.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It didn't take long for the discussion to devolve into a recitation of why ScottyBerg is not a sockpuppet of Mantanmoreland, which is really immaterial to my original question. I'll be going now. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:29, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think an editor with over 10K good edits deserves different treatment than an editor with 20 edits, even if the checkuser info is identical. I realize that some way feel differently, but that's how I feel. If someone points out multiple examples of blocked users with over 10K edits, which were left blocked for a week under similar circumstances, I will concede that we ought to treat this one the same due to precedent, but I will begin agitating to revisit the policy. However, it is time for basketball, see you all tomorrow.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There were a few Mantan socks that got blocked despite having thousands of edits, though never quite this many. However, the over 10K count is misleading since the lion's share are edits done with automated tools like Twinkle and Huggle.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

SPhilbrick, you may be interested in this case in which an editor with over 50 000 edits was blocked with checkuser evidence. Although I mentioned an example earlier of an admin blocked for sockpuppetry, upon checking I find that the account had just over 5 000 edits. I'm sure there are other examples, if someone wants to search them out, but to what end? I'm quite sure that you will claim that this situation is somehow different from any example that can be offered. It is not. I'm gone again, I just wanted to answer your query. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How is 36% "the lion's share?" Cardamon (talk) 01:26, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on who the lion is sharing with. Like if there's also a couple of really big animals like a woolly mammoth and a sabre tooth tiger they could take most of the food and the lion might not be left with much. Or something really fast like a puma could sneak in and run away with it. The lion probably wouldn't like that but it would teach him that things don't always go the way we want them to, which is an important lesson to learn. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You don't need a saber tooth tiger. Even an ordinary tiger would be able to take most of the food, if the lion didn't have a death wish. Nil Einne (talk) 12:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are Julian Robertson and Patrick M. Byrne the mammoths, pumas, or lions? Cla68 (talk) 10:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is the response from Arbcom, which is to take about a week, counting from the time of the initial block, which would then be the 18th, or when it was stated it would be about a week, which would be about the 19th-20th? Silverseren^C 02:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Won't matter on the 18th since we're blacked out in protest over SOPA.--MONGO 03:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, just saw the notice. So, we'll say the 20th at the latest then. Silverseren^C 03:24, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I believe that arbcom will NOT lift the block...Alison says the block was based on evidence that included both checkuser info and editing cues.--MONGO 03:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, that they should have an update by the 20th. Not let this go away quietly. And all Scotty has to do in that situation is show them his real identity. Admittedly, he could have done that in the first place, though I understand people's reluctance to have people on the internet know who they are. Silverseren^C 03:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbcom has not communicated with me, so I don't know if being satisfied as to my RL identity would affect their deliberations. They haven't even told me that full arbcom is considering the case. I had to read that on AGK's talk page several days after he said that. Obviously I am not going to provide confidential information to a mailing list that doesn't acknowledge what I send them and has a history of leaking sensitive information to a hostile website. I don't even know if they see what I email them. I get an automatic email saying "your email is being held for moderation." There may be a way around the RL issue, something like what Quest suggested, but at this point they question is moot as they are silent and not showing me any courtesy. My feeling is that they shouldn't have blocked me in the first place, and they already should have reversed my block based upon what they already know. ScottyBerg (talk) 12:20, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]