914[]
Where does it say Shutenmaru is the one who stole from the farm? Rhavkin (talk) 13:35, August 31, 2018 (UTC)
Given that the Gifters around Bakura are searching for thieves nearby, it seems like enough of a connection. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 21:28, September 2, 2018 (UTC)
You just said it yourself that they are looking for thieves, meaning more then one. And besides, Holdem asked if Luffy, Zoro, and Kiku were his men, so at the very least he is a leader of group that may have stolen from a farm, but not nervelessly the actual thief. Rhavkin (talk) 07:14, September 3, 2018 (UTC)
Shutenmaru was shown multiple times in chapter 922 to be the exact same person as Ashura Doji. I'd like to combine the two pages if possible.
It isn't officialy confirmed yet and please sign your post using "~~~~". Vrytin (talk) 14:44, October 28, 2018 (UTC)
Name[]
He has shown no intent of rejecting the name Ashura Doji in the latest chapter, so shouldn't we consider "Shutenmaru" simply an alias? Awaikage Talk 19:17, November 23, 2018 (UTC)
Yes. I thought it was already like that. SeaTerror (talk) 03:49, November 24, 2018 (UTC)
I'm a bit hesitant to go that far, especially since he got an intro box for Shutenmaru and the exchange in 925 was pretty brief. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:35, November 24, 2018 (UTC)
Yeah this still should be moved. SeaTerror (talk) 18:18, February 4, 2019 (UTC)
So here's what I'm thinking. I still think Shutenmaru should be the page name, since that's what he was introduced as. The alliance called him Ashura because that's what they know him as, and since there was nothing shown after the panel where Inuarashi referred to him as such, I wouldn't take it as confirmation that he still uses the name.
So here's my proposition: if he's called Ashura Doji in the characters section of Volume 93, then I'll be onboard with changing it. If he's still called Shutenmaru, though, I would still lean toward retaining the page name as such. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 04:34, March 19, 2019 (UTC)
Shutenmaru is his current name. I think we should use the name now. --Klobis (talk) 07:26, March 19, 2019 (UTC)
Shutenmaru seems like an alias. We should be going with Ashura Doji. 22:36, March 20, 2019 (UTC)
"Seems like" an alias sounds like speculation. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:57, March 26, 2019 (UTC)
It was never stated he changed his name. We moved all other articles to their real names. SeaTerror (talk) 18:51, March 26, 2019 (UTC)
Oh this never ended. If we're not going to use real names anymore can I move Edward Newgate to Whitebeard? SeaTerror (talk) 19:38, June 28, 2019 (UTC)
Volume 93 lists him as "Ashura Doji" with Shutenmaru in parentheses so I have changed my mind. Can probably close this and make the changes now. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:14, July 2, 2019 (UTC)
Any reason parts of this page refer to him as "Ashura" instead of "Doji"? Rhavkin (talk) 09:49, July 9, 2019 (UTC)
He has always been referred to as Ashura in the manga. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:45, July 9, 2019 (UTC)
Romanization[]
|
Hey! Let's talk this out!
This is an active talk page. Please participate if you wish to make changes to the subject at hand. Remember to remain calm and civil throughout the discussion! |
In the Vivre Card databook, Ashura Doji's name was romanized as "Asyuradouji". The same romanization was later used here, by the official One Piece Youtube account (thanks DewClamChum for pointing it out). I'm not aware of any alternate romanizations, so if there are none, I propose we switch to that romanization as well.
In a forum from 2019, Klobis brought up an issue with Kozuki/Kouzuki and the way long o's written in kanji are romanized. The end of Ashura Doji's name is written with kanji, presenting the same issue as in the case of Kozuki and the potential mistranslation of the long o; however, I would argue that the "standard" Japanese romanization system shouldn't override what we've been presented with. It wouldn't be the only name using a non-standard romanization ("Luffy-tarou", for example), or even using a "mistaken" romanization ("Holed'em", for example). We're not attempting to romanize "real" aspects of language, we're looking at fictional names that somebody decided on, and that they can therefore decide the romanization for.
As a separate point, even if other people disagree on the romanization of the long o, I think the Vivre Card's romanization indicates that we should at least romanize the page as "Asyuradoji". I don't know of any issue with the "Asyura" portion, and his name being one word makes sense with Kin'emon and Kikunojo being called "Kin" and "Kiku", just like how he's called "Ashura"/"Asyura". Walrsu (talk) 06:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Official romanizations in the manga and databooks have always seemed to use the Hepburn romanization system, which would romanize シュ as "shu". I think the other main romanization system is Nihon-shiki which romanizes シュ as "syu", and I assume that's where "Asyura" is coming from. It feels like a mistake to me because it uses a different romanization system than every other name in the series (as far as I know), so spelling it that way does make me uncomfortable. But as you pointed out, we already use other romanizations with "mistakes" if they're the only romanizations we have.
I'm neutral on the "Doji/Douji" part. I'm not familiar with kanji romanization having different rules than katakana. I would have to defer to Klobis, but I think he might have just been talking about the standard way Japanese is romanized in general (Hepburn), and not referring to kanji specifically. I know for a fact Japanese names with "おう" in them can be romanized in a variety of ways, even when written in kanji ("o"/"ou"/"oh"/"oo"). Either way, like you said, there are other names that have been officially romanized with an "ou" spelling that the Wiki already uses (Luffy-tarou, Zoro-juurou, Hyouzou, Koushirou). So what's "standard" doesn't really matter.
I also agree that based on this romanization of his name we should at the very least be writing his name as one word for the reasons you said. My actual preference would be to write his name as Ashuradoji. However since it's the only official romanization we have, I don't think there's a good reason for us to not use Asyuradouji. DewClamChum (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
I really don't like how "Asyuradouji" looks due to the conflicting "shu - syu" romanization, so I'd prefer to keep "Ashura", although I understand "Asyuradouji" is the only romanization from a proper source. The "o/ou/ō" thing has never been all that consistent. I did notice some other oddities in the video.
- Shiryu is "Shiliew"
- Tsurujo is "O-Tsuru (Turujo)"
- Basil Hawkins is "Bajil Hawkins"
Awaikage Talk 10:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
I've been waiting for other people to respond, but given it's been two weeks since the last reply, that doesn't seem likely to happen. Unless I've misunderstood Awaikage's message, there don't seem to be any disagreements to changing the romanization to "Asyuradouji"; though I agree "Asyura" feels 'clunky', I think it makes sense to prioritize the official romanization (essentially, the same stance I would have on something like "Hol'edem", which we do use). I'd like to implement it if more time passes without any disagreements - due to the amount of changes that would need to be made, I think waiting until November 10th (another two weeks) makes sense. If somebody disagrees with the new romanization or the waiting period, please respond below.
There's also a chance I misunderstood an above response, so please correct me if that's the case - I'm interpreting them both as "hesitant yes" to using "Asyuradouji".
Regarding the video, I think it acts more as a supporting point than a founding argument. It's long been known that merchandise-based romanizations are inconsistent, but I think debated romanizations being used in merchandise can still be a good indicator of if a given romanization is used. Walrsu (talk) 04:35, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm not too fond of Asyuradouji. Ashura Doji just works fine, both with "shu" instead of "syu" and "o" instead of "ou". While it could be one word because his name lacks the ・ sign that separates a character's first name and surname, I don't think it works based on the examples: "Kin" is just called such by a few characters, but Kin'emon by everyone else and the Wiki, and Kiku is mostly consistent across everyone and the Wiki, the same case with Ashura as it is commonly used. Even if the Vivre Card databook is reputable, it is still susceptible to mistakes. I also oppose changing to Kouzuki and Hyougoro because they are just from the YouTube video. I don't believe it's safe to accept what is provided by the YouTube channel since they often contradict what the Wiki uses. AverageLiteratureEnthusiast (talk) 08:24, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Hyougoro, Kouzuki, and Asyuradouji all come from the Vivre Cards, not from the video. The video was just meant to point out that the Vivre Cards aren't the only time those romanizations were used.
I'm not sure I understand your point with Kin'emon and Kikunojo; we refer to Kiku by her "nickname", but still recognize that her full name is one word, which is what I propose we do with Asyuradouji.
And I agree that "Ashura Doji" isn't wrong, it just seems like "Asyuradouji" is "more correct", since that's the official romanization used in the databook. It's essentially the same as the Holed'em example; "Holdem" is a correct romanization, but the "official" one takes priority, so we refer to him as "Holed'em" (despite the fact you would never spell it like that natively in English). Walrsu (talk) 15:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I'm very hesitant to change "Ashura" to "Asyura" because phonetically that doesn't make any sense in English or any other language I can think of that uses the Latin alphabet. "Shu" シュ is romanized as "syu" in some romaji styles, but this wiki predominantly uses Hepburn romanization and it just seems like an aberration given how Oda and Vivre Card usually romanize names.
I think renaming to "Ashura Douji" would be a good middle ground. He is called Ashura in story which indicates it's not a singular "Ashuradouji". Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Kin'emon and Kikunojo are called "Kin" and "Kiku" despite their names being one word, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're referring to.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say it doesn't make sense phonetically; in terms of pronunciation or spelling? I don't see any issue with either, though in terms of pronunciation it might be a difference of accent, since I'm not American; I've been reading it as "As-yura", which is similar (though, to be fair, noticeably different) to "Ashura". Walrsu (talk) 21:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
I am completely against the change unless the spelling is provided by Oda himself. --Klobis (talk) 13:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Is there any specific reason why you're against it, or is it the same as the forum linked above? I still don't see how the fact that it was decided that way in a canon source wouldn't override the "expected" romanization. Walrsu (talk) 20:48, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
Yeah I'll go with what Kaido said. SeaTerror (talk) 15:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
I honestly forgot about this discussion, but I still think we should move to "Asyuradouji". Of the three proposed changes, it seems like this is the current standing:
- "Doji" -> "Douji" - Mostly accepted as a change, though not universally.
- "Shu" -> "Syu" - Mostly not accepted, though I'm really not sure why. "Syu" instead of "shu" is the romanization under the Kunrei-shiki/Nihon-shiki systems, so it's not like it comes out of nowhere - we just don't use it as our default.
- Combining to one word - Pretty much 50/50. I'm excluding Klobis from the count because I don't know what they're arguing for/against. As I mentioned above, this appears to be exactly the same as Kikunojo - her full name is one word, but she's commonly called just "Kiku", like Asyuradouji.
Since this discussion, the spelling "Asyuradouji" has continued to be used in merchandise - while that's obviously not a confirmation of its validity, it does confirm they're sticking with it, and the spelling wasn't a mistake.
If we ultimately decide not to use the Vivre Card spelling, we need to add a Translation and Dub Issues section explaining why we haven't. If we decide to only use part of it (such as "Ashura Douji"), that needs to be explained as well. Walrsu (talk) 17:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)