Yamato[]
why put yamato among the transgender characters when she may be acting like this only because she wants to impersonate oden but she could feel like a woman. ie at the very least I would leave the question open until a definitive explanation is given by the author. so you go to give information which, however, is not said to be correct. in addition I would put ivacov instead who is a confirmed transgender character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonardo gargano (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
You already know where to read up on the Yamato desicion. Ivankov is included already through the Newkama category, which is a subcategory of this one. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 21:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
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I do not want to open up a can of worms, but most of those characters aren't transgenders. Okamas are crossdressers and Yamato is a whole story. Would that be a major issue to call this category Queer or Genderqueer characters? Rhavkin (talk) 07:57, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
I'm not against using "queer" to define all these characters, since it's an umbrella term and rolls off the tongue better than "gender non-conforming characters". My only concern is that "queer" can be seen or used as a slur, although it is used non-derogatorily in the FUNimation dub. But I dunno if that's an issue here, since it wouldn't be used in a derogatory way anyways. Somebody probably knows about that stuff better than me. uknownada Talk 21:40, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
But to which of the okama articles do you think the transgender term doesn't apply? Dragonus Nesha (talk) 22:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Okamas in general are seen to be as crossdressers, or drag queens, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong. uknownada Talk 23:20, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- That's an overly strict definition and doesn't fit their depiction in the series. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 02:05, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
I know there were sevral talks about the literal meaning of the term "Okama", and I do not want to start those again here, but the different between Transgender and crossdressers are gender identity: transgenders reject their given gender and crossdressers reject the norms of their given gender. This category include three conservational subjects so using the most broad term is more preferable to avoid going back to the 'who fits where' debates.
To answer your question more specifically, I thing Okamas are Crossdressers and Newkamas are Genderfluid, and to go further then that, Kiku is Transgender and Yamato is Intrafeminflux. I won't bring up those gender identities in any of the talk pages for lack of confirmations. Rhavkin (talk) 04:00, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Category_talk:Okama I brought it up there before. Okama are not transgender and the category already breaks the at least 5 rule. SeaTerror (talk) 06:42, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
I would agree that Okama should likely be removed as a child category, since from what I understand being an Okama does not make a character transgender. The Transgender Characters category should still exist even with only 3 pages (assuming Okama is removed and Morley is added) though, as the 5-page rule doesn't apply in this case (as User:AuroraOfDeath mentioned in Category talk:Okama).
To respond to That wasn't part of the original forum so somebody added that arbitrarily. from the Okama talk, it was added by User:Kaido King of the Beasts based on Forum:More Category Issues, so not added "arbitrarily" (see most recent edit on the One Piece Wiki:Guidebook/Category Guidelines page). Walrsu (talk) 14:00, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
Please do not ignore the topic. If we change the name of this category to something more generic like Queer or Genderqueer, Okama can stay here. Rhavkin (talk) 14:12, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oh I was responding to SeaTerror's comment specifically. Renaming the category to Genderqueer Characters would allow the Okama to stay within the category, so I would support it. Walrsu (talk) 16:19, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
I guess that could work. Slightly more accurate then. SeaTerror (talk) 06:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Again, I ask: To which of the okama articles do you think the transgender term doesn't apply? Take some time to actually look into the characters rather than blanket replying "all of them because they are okama" since you've mostly been using an overly strict, out-of-series definition of okama. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I'll start with the easy part, the Newkama. The Okama page reference chapter 538, in which Ivankov explained they all "transcended gender", hence being genderfluid.
Now as for the Okama, we have only ever seen one okama (Tibany) and the non canon Caroline, since both Ivankov and Inazuma are now Newkama, but even so, let's talk about all four. You are asking about the articles, so I would like to point out that in all of their articles they are refer to as males, and since we do not have any reason to think otherwise, were born men, so by definition they are not transgender. Add this to the Okama category talk page mentioned above, and the literal translation to transvestite.
At this point I would have to turn the question to you: What make you think (based on articles) that they are transgenders? Rhavkin (talk) 16:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
What is this weird fixation on judging them purely on their articles? Why start this topic but refuse to engage with the series itself and how it presents okama? And no, okama doesn't literally translate to "transvestite". Dragonus Nesha (talk) 17:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
You specifically asked "To which of the okama articles do you think the transgender term doesn't apply?" and to "look into the characters". Can you clarify what exactly are you asking? And I am using the translation based on Okama#Translation and Dub Issues: "Literally meaning "a pot, a kettle", this word, always with the honorific prefix "O-", refers to a gay man, especially one who is viewed as effeminate or a drag queen". Rhavkin (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
That's why I added the clarification about the characters themselves when I asked the second time; the "articles" usage was also to specify the characters on whom we have information. I was hoping you would set aside your definition of okama long enough to see how the series presents and describes the characters. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 18:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I still fail to understand your question. Definition aside, non of the okama characters have referred to themselves as female, they just wear feminine clothing, making them more transvestite then transgender. What other type of proof are you looking for? Rhavkin (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
The Japanese word for transgender is "toransujenda" which yes it does mean Okama does not apply to this category. Renaming the category was the best suggestion so far. SeaTerror (talk) 07:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
"non of the okama characters have referred to themselves as female"
Mr. 2 sings about okama being men and women (160), and the okama characters are described/identified as maidens, queens, etc. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 14:03, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
So is the category going to be renamed? That was the best idea so far. SeaTerror (talk) 03:45, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
We've reached a stalemate. There is no consensus or a clear majority for a change. I have no idea what is the next move forward. I still believe having having an umbrella term of "Queer" would include the okama category in it, as well as Yamato and Kiku. Rhavkin (talk) 16:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
There's only one person that doesn't support the rename. There is a majority. SeaTerror (talk) 16:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
A little late to this discussion, but I wanted to add some thoughts as a trans person who peruses this wiki (tho I'm not an editor). The problem with changing the name to "Queer" is I feel it's moving away from the intended use of this category. Because it's meant to be a category for trans identities, or rather, for gender outside of the "norm". And while yes, "Queer" is inclusive of that, it's also a broad term extending to any gender or sexual/romantic identities that aren't cis or hetero. I don't think it's necessary to switch to that for now, as currently, the only people listed in this category are solely because of their gender.
I don't mind the category remaining as it is. Of course, I also don't have a problem with Yamato and all Okama being considered trans, even if that's more up for debate. If you want the category to be more inclusive to gender identities and presentations outside the "norm", then I think the best option would be something like "Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Characters" or shortened to "Trans/GNC Characters". Sure, it may be wordy, but I think it remains both inclusive and exact in what it's defining.
Also, for the love of god, do not rename the category to "Genderqueer". That is a nonbinary identity and not an umbrella term for trans or GNC identities. MyTwoWings (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
It's been a while since the last response here, but since the majority seemed to support renaming originally, I think it makes sense to proceed with that. MyTwoWings suggested "Trans/GNC Characters" (or the longer "Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Characters" - is there anybody who disagrees with that? If not, I'd like to make the change.
Also, regarding the okama - whether or not they're all transgender seems like a complicated debate, but they're definitely all gender non-conforming, so that seems like a fair compromise. Walrsu (talk) 06:39, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Meant to make this comment earlier but kept forgetting to, whoopsies.
But uhh honestly, it seems to me like there aren't enough people who actually care about this issue over the category name. MyTwoWings (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
When I started this last year, I specifically did NOT want this to became that kind of discussion. We are not gender identity experts and this has become a terminology debate. Oda can introduce a character with any gender identity he wishes, so this discussion might never be over, and I really don't care which umbrella term is the correct one for one character and not the other.
This category ought to be for characters that are not male\female, and Transgender is too specific for that. Every one agree that the term is wrong, but there are too many opinions on which is right. As long as we are stuck on the gender identities of fictional characters based on real world terminology, someone would not agree based on one character for either direction. That someone who care about the correct category name should sum up this gender identity debate and filter only the relevant suggestions based on the story alone so we can reach an agreement. Rhavkin (talk) 04:04, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
I mean, you questioned the correct term for a category about gender. You were going to get a discussion on gender.
If you want a category without male or female characters, then it'd be an empty category. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any character in One Piece that doesn't exist outside the binary, at least not definitively. You could make the argument for Bon Kurei (who represented both the male and female partner of his position in Baroque Works) or characters like Ivankov and Inazuma (who have been shown to change between female and male at will).
If you want a category for characters that aren't cis male or cis female, then it's already that category as it is. Transgender is the correct term. If you want that category, but without the endless debates on "who counts as trans", then I stand by my suggestion being the most accurate and inclusive version: "Trans/GNC Characters". While it's debatable whether Okama are considered trans or not, I don't think it's really arguable that they aren't gender nonconforming (crossdressing is definitely nonconformity). And I think anyone that would argue that probably isn't doing so from a respectful place on gender topics. MyTwoWings (talk) 09:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with that choice of a name. The original suggestion is better and would also include okama characters. SeaTerror (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Gonna ask that you expand on why you disagree with "Trans/GNC Characters" as a suggested name. Please see my original comment with why I disagree with Genderqueer (which would be used incorrectly) or Queer (which I think would obfuscate the purpose of this category) as choices.MyTwoWings (talk) 09:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
I already said why multiple times on this page and the Okama category. SeaTerror (talk) 16:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
The only comment you've made in either talk page since I originally suggested adding "Gender Non-conforming" to the category name is the one here that simply says "I disagree with that choice of a name", so no, you haven't. I ask again: why do you disagree with my suggestion as a way of including characters who aren't necessarily trans? MyTwoWings (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
If you had actually bothered to read my comments then you would see why exactly I said the other name was better. SeaTerror (talk) 16:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- ST, it's clear that no one knows what you are referring to, so either repeat what you said or refer to a specific comment by date and time. Stop being difficult during discussions. Rhavkin (talk) 18:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I have read your comments, SeaTerror, several times now. Nowhere in any of them do you explain why you have a problem with adding "Gender Non-conforming" to the category name. You don't even really explain why you'd prefer renaming to "Queer" or "Genderqueer" besides "I guess that could work". The main thing you keep arguing is Okama are not trans, which fine, but they are undebatably gender non-conforming. So what's wrong with using a term that accurately describes them? MyTwoWings (talk) 18:34, 19 March 2024 (UTC)